Dry Sump Questions

kcarm92 · 2/4/17, 9:34 AM

look at at a ump mod, how they hike up they are all wet sump engines most turn 8000 or more rpms wouldnt be afraid to do it just get a good pan

Aces&Eights · 2/4/17, 3:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FNG

Ok guys, new to the forum here but I've been around sprinters for a while. I've been kicking around the idea of putting an engine together and getting a car together slowly. Money is a subject but I COMPLETELY understand that racing is NOT CHEAP. When I ask these engine questions, I am NOT trying to do it as cheap as possible just wondering were money should be spent. I am not looking to build a USAC caliber engine. Just a local -12 steel block 410.

Here's my thoughts on a -12 steel block. New Dart Little M or SHP block depending on horsepower calculations. New forged crank. High quality rods and pistons.Top all that off with a set of NICE used -12 heads and injection.

First question is about Dry Sump oil systems...... Is a Dry Sump mostly used due to its scavenging capability? Again, I am not looking to build a USAC engine here and don't really mind a little air and oil around the crankshaft lol. I see the Racesaver guys running a Wet Sump, oval track pan small block water pump and high quality balancer. Is a Wet Sump "good enough" for a 410 engine build? Or do these high RPM engines require a Dry Sump oil system. As mentioned before, I'm not looking for a fire breathing 850 hp monster. Just a nice and reliable 12 head steely.

I could be completely off on the thoughts of running a Wet Sump system on a 410 and if I am please don't be afraid to say so. With the modified guys and 305 guys running it I thought that might be a way to save a few dollars on an engine build.

Thanks in advance!

Why does it have to be -12? Dry sump becomes more a necessity above a certain RPM level. If you want to run wet sump, you'll need to build the entire engine around that goal, like heads that are better suited for a lower RPM. The newer and more trickier you get with the heads, the higher the RPM needs to be to take advantage. Some really good 23's or maybe some 18's would also be cheaper to get other parts for like headers and rocker arms. The package needs to work together, so if you go with -12 you'll need to turn it up to make those heads happy and I'm guessing make wet sump a non-starter and dry sump a necessity. Keep in mind the track you intend to run on too, if its dry slick often or a short stop & go track you may never need -12 heads. What you give up on top end w/23 or 18, if you build and tune properly, you'll have an advantage on exit. JMO

Rhody · 2/5/17, 4:06 PM

-12 heads are low RPM stump pullers. They top out at about 750 HP, and are a pretty economical way to go for a sprinter. I would buy a used -12 aluminum dry sump engine before building a new steel engine, of courae that ia a gamble too.

Aces&Eights · 2/5/17, 4:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhody

-12 heads are low RPM stump pullers. They top out at about 750 HP, and are a pretty economical way to go for a sprinter. I would buy a used -12 aluminum dry sump engine before building a new steel engine, of courae that ia a gamble too.

I'm not familiar with -12, but if what you say is true, then great. I'm curious though, whats low RPM to you?

Rhody · 2/5/17, 5:16 PM

I gear that engine to spin 8200. My other engines I gear for 8800 to 9000 rpm. The -12 is much more drivable than the others. The -12 also went 25 races between rebuilds.

bobby01 · 2/6/17, 9:25 AM

If the rules let you run a dry sump DO IT It is cheap insurance against engine failure.
I can guarantee you that if dry sumps were legal with UMP or USMTS modifieds they all would have them.

Aces&Eights · 2/6/17, 4:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhody

I gear that engine to spin 8200. My other engines I gear for 8800 to 9000 rpm. The -12 is much more drivable than the others. The -12 also went 25 races between rebuilds.

8200 may be too much for wet sump depending on how long you stay at the higher RPM, but its lower than I expected. With some nice 23's he could safely pull off wet sump. You could probably get away with a higher peak RPM if you don't linger there. Some may disagree with that.

2starcar · 2/23/17, 1:07 AM

^disagree wet dump engines turn well over 8200 on a regular basis every week, have two of them that can and do. As kcar92 stated mods run 8200 and higher all the time(more like 8500-9100). Can't run cheap parts and turn that hard all the time

Can26 · 2/23/17, 5:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2starcar

^disagree wet dump engines turn well over 8200 on a regular basis every week, have two of them that can and do. As kcar92 stated mods run 8200 and higher all the time(more like 8500-9100). Can't run cheap parts and turn that hard all the time

I turn both of my wet sump 360's that high as well. Only oil related issue I have encountered was a pump drive shaft breaking.

And, I would like to know how an oil pan knows what heads are on the top? LOL

2starcar · 2/23/17, 7:03 PM

I think the oil pan's shape and baffles are the concern for correct and good scavenging. Is why it was referenced.

2/23/17, 1:07 AM	#18
2starcar Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 22	^disagree wet dump engines turn well over 8200 on a regular basis every week, have two of them that can and do. As kcar92 stated mods run 8200 and higher all the time(more like 8500-9100). Can't run cheap parts and turn that hard all the time

2/23/17, 7:03 PM	#20
2starcar Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 22	I think the oil pan's shape and baffles are the concern for correct and good scavenging. Is why it was referenced.