[nathans1012]

Originally Posted by Tony74 With the new clay and work they did last year, are they doing more? Like maybe digging out the pavement?

The town won't let them remove the pavement. Something about the EPA is what I was told according to the mayor. Track is too close to town.

[Rich Mersereau]

I drove by Plymouth a few days ago they are really working hard on putting up all new bleachers the place is completely ripped up you won't recognize it in the spring

[fish]

Originally Posted by nathans1012 The town won't let them remove the pavement. Something about the EPA is what I was told according to the mayor. Track is too close to town.

That explains some things. I've wondered why they didn't dig up the asphalt as well.

That has to be a different monster to tame as far as track prep goes.

During the 80s Avilla was also dirt on top of asphalt and as I remember could be quite unpredictable. Despite that, it also produced some great inside/outside Hoosier bullring battles.

Walking in to Plymouth and later watching Robert Ballou swoop outside of traffic through turns 1 & 2 it reminded me a lot of Avilla.

(Side note: Robert didn't care for the surface as anyone that was there that night might remember.)

[Nate]

Originally Posted by fish That explains some things. I've wondered why they didn't dig up the asphalt as well. That has to be a different monster to tame as far as track prep goes. During the 80s Avilla was also dirt on top of asphalt and as I remember could be quite unpredictable. Despite that, it also produced some great inside/outside Hoosier bullring battles. Walking in to Plymouth and later watching Robert Ballou swoop outside of traffic through turns 1 & 2 it reminded me a lot of Avilla. (Side note: Robert didn't care for the surface as anyone that was there that night might remember.)

Is it Atomic that also has pavement underneath it? Or am I thinking of somewhere else?

[nathans1012]

Originally Posted by Nate Is it Atomic that also has pavement underneath it? Or am I thinking of somewhere else?

Bubba Raceway Park (Ocala, Florida) has pavement underneath it. Not sure if that was a track you where thinking of.

[treecitytornado]

Daugherty Speedway may still have pavement underneath it; not sure.

[short track scott]

Originally Posted by amxman Is there a reason they did not go with the 604 like Wilmot, WI did? Its kind of ironic that Plymouth is running wings in non wing country and Wilmot is running non wings in wing country. The wingless did put on a good show for the first year of a new class

Plymouth is running the 602 Pro Sprint class which is sanctioned by Dirtcar, which is cahoots with the World of Outlaws. Wing cars.

Had Plymouth gone it on their own there may have been a better chance of it being a non wing class, although the insurance company had a seat at the table as well.........they prefer wings.

[short track scott]

Originally Posted by fish You're right, that certainly was a long time ago. And I have to admit my stops at Plymouth haven't been perfect either. As far as 305, 360, 602, etc. mentioned elsewhere, I used to go to motorcycle races and laugh at them and say the best thing about sprint cars was that (at that time) they were pretty much the same everywhere. That sure isn't the case anymore, and I don't like it. If it was up to me, it would be 410 sprint cars without wings on the schedule at Plymouth. Imagine a Friday (Gas City), Saturday (Plymouth) and Sunday (Kokomo) circuit and what it would do for sprint car racing in northern Indiana. If Plymouth had announced they were running nonwing sprints every week, there'd be people on here throwing a fit and asking where all the cars are going to come from. Plymouth has been running mini sprints and you have to believe from that bunch there are going to be a few of them move up, and if it's successful, more will follow. We need some NEW blood. I don't know if this will work out, but a track within my driving distance added sprint cars to their regular program. To me, that's a good thing.

I appreciate both your and Nate's comments about Plymouth. Nate is likely on point with the Outlaws date that prepping a track for wing 900hp cars and USAC midgets is a tall order. But the best effort will be made and fans will see the best show possible.

Learning what that surface needs is in no textbook. The parent material does not have much if any sand in it. That's why it doesn't take rubber. There is a lot more to it and the track prep guys are getting a handle on it. They took some lumps last year and some nights were spot on. We sat together at Eldora at the 4 Crown and were convinced that the brown cloud emanating from the surface couldn't be dust because people weren't complaining about it.

As for nonwing 410s running weekly at Plymouth, that thought was on the table extensively. However the thing that has been mentioned regarding geography was very evident in the discussion. The wing cars of Michigan an the nonwing cars of central Indiana both have a hike to come to Plymouth. And while Gas City to Plymouth is a short two hour haul, it is a Saturday night outpost for the nonwing contingent of central Indiana, with Kokomo still on the northern side of most competitors. Chris Gurley and Paul Hazen are about the only non wing guys up here. Likewise, most the wing cars of Michigan and Ohio would be travelling the same kinds of distance to compete at Plymouth, excluding the Gaerte 3G and the Mann Enterprises fleets, DeVault, Scott Hull, Hanft, and some other semi local guys who tend to favor wing racing.

So in that regard the drawing board had room for a new idea, and that's where the 602 Pro Sprint idea came into play. Plymouth was able to look at the platform as an opportunity give mini sprint racers (there are 2 Saturday night mini sprint tracks besides Plymouth), current racers in other divisions, as well as a group of racers who simply could no longer afford to run sprint cars a chance to get back into racing. You are spot on about new blood. Young, old, veteran, regardless. The buy in has to be lowered for people to get into sprint cars, both on the investment and the maintenance side. Is this the answer? We're going to find out, but it beats not trying anything.

2016.
Is Plymouth going to save the world of sprint car racing by June 1 with Pro Sprints? I wouldn't say that. Are there going to be any cars? Yes. I hear of 11 being built currently and Pace Performance said at PRI the interest was more than expected at the show for guys in the area looking to have an option.

Plymouth is upgrading the seating and fan amenities. Stop in and check the place out. If the place is too dusty, say so. If the show goes too long, say so. Whatever helps to make the experience better, PLEASE, say so.

Short of setting the Sun in the East on raceday. Not even Ed Kennedy, the owner, has quite that much pull.

[short track scott]

Hey, a Christmas Eve hat trick here on the IOW. Three in a row for me.

The pavement as of Spring 2015 is 24-30" below the track surface. The quick scale is to look at the "yard block" wall system and understand that the surface was raised one block higher in the Spring of 2015. Then a new top course of yard block was added to retain effective wall height. A new section was poured on the front stretch as well for the same reason. The easiest place to notice the new clay is at the start/finish line gate where there is a much smaller distance from the track to the flagstand base.

As for the mayor or any other powers that be not allowing the track to tear out the pavement, the track is not in city limits. I'm sure there could be an issue at some level somewhere within the county, IDEM, NASCAR, PETA or even YUSOB that is keeping the pavement well buried in place at the present time. I personally believe it could have a lot to do with dollars and sense. Why spend a ton of money, time and screw with the dirt to pull up pavement that is that far down already? I understand a little bit about water tables, underground springs and the like. If it were East Bay, West Memphis, or some other track that has an ample water source within sight it could be a logical course of action. The fact is the low ground behind the track is almost 15' below the track surface and is the drainage for every field west of there for a couple miles. The pit lane at Plymouth falls almost 3 feet from the county road down to the south end of the property behind turn two. It doesn't pond.

In the end the pavement probably doesn't help anything as far as the surface. I'm sure if it were studied, and core samples taken the area where there is pavement probably would have a higher temperature at 18" and 24" and 30" below the surface compared to native ground. But if there were any increase, even a full degree or two, it would not be enough of a reason to drop the money on digging up the pavement. And while I'm not going to make the case that pavement helps water from draining through the surface into the subsurface and water table, neither can I make a case the moisture is seeping UP from the ground below and being stopped by the underside of the buried pavement.

To me, it's a push. At best.

[nathans1012]

Originally Posted by short track scott I appreciate both your and Nate's comments about Plymouth. Nate is likely on point with the Outlaws date that prepping a track for wing 900hp cars and USAC midgets is a tall order. But the best effort will be made and fans will see the best show possible. Learning what that surface needs is in no textbook. The parent material does not have much if any sand in it. That's why it doesn't take rubber. There is a lot more to it and the track prep guys are getting a handle on it. They took some lumps last year and some nights were spot on. We sat together at Eldora at the 4 Crown and were convinced that the brown cloud emanating from the surface couldn't be dust because people weren't complaining about it. As for nonwing 410s running weekly at Plymouth, that thought was on the table extensively. However the thing that has been mentioned regarding geography was very evident in the discussion. The wing cars of Michigan an the nonwing cars of central Indiana both have a hike to come to Plymouth. And while Gas City to Plymouth is a short two hour haul, it is a Saturday night outpost for the nonwing contingent of central Indiana, with Kokomo still on the northern side of most competitors. Chris Gurley and Paul Hazen are about the only non wing guys up here. Likewise, most the wing cars of Michigan and Ohio would be travelling the same kinds of distance to compete at Plymouth, excluding the Gaerte 3G and the Mann Enterprises fleets, DeVault, Scott Hull, Hanft, and some other semi local guys who tend to favor wing racing. So in that regard the drawing board had room for a new idea, and that's where the 602 Pro Sprint idea came into play. Plymouth was able to look at the platform as an opportunity give mini sprint racers (there are 2 Saturday night mini sprint tracks besides Plymouth), current racers in other divisions, as well as a group of racers who simply could no longer afford to run sprint cars a chance to get back into racing. You are spot on about new blood. Young, old, veteran, regardless. The buy in has to be lowered for people to get into sprint cars, both on the investment and the maintenance side. Is this the answer? We're going to find out, but it beats not trying anything. 2016. Is Plymouth going to save the world of sprint car racing by June 1 with Pro Sprints? I wouldn't say that. Are there going to be any cars? Yes. I hear of 11 being built currently and Pace Performance said at PRI the interest was more than expected at the show for guys in the area looking to have an option. Plymouth is upgrading the seating and fan amenities. Stop in and check the place out. If the place is too dusty, say so. If the show goes too long, say so. Whatever helps to make the experience better, PLEASE, say so. Short of setting the Sun in the East on raceday. Not even Ed Kennedy, the owner, has quite that much pull.

Originally Posted by short track scott Hey, a Christmas Eve hat trick here on the IOW. Three in a row for me. The pavement as of Spring 2015 is 24-30" below the track surface. The quick scale is to look at the "yard block" wall system and understand that the surface was raised one block higher in the Spring of 2015. Then a new top course of yard block was added to retain effective wall height. A new section was poured on the front stretch as well for the same reason. The easiest place to notice the new clay is at the start/finish line gate where there is a much smaller distance from the track to the flagstand base. As for the mayor or any other powers that be not allowing the track to tear out the pavement, the track is not in city limits. I'm sure there could be an issue at some level somewhere within the county, IDEM, NASCAR, PETA or even YUSOB that is keeping the pavement well buried in place at the present time. I personally believe it could have a lot to do with dollars and sense. Why spend a ton of money, time and screw with the dirt to pull up pavement that is that far down already? I understand a little bit about water tables, underground springs and the like. If it were East Bay, West Memphis, or some other track that has an ample water source within sight it could be a logical course of action. The fact is the low ground behind the track is almost 15' below the track surface and is the drainage for every field west of there for a couple miles. The pit lane at Plymouth falls almost 3 feet from the county road down to the south end of the property behind turn two. It doesn't pond. In the end the pavement probably doesn't help anything as far as the surface. I'm sure if it were studied, and core samples taken the area where there is pavement probably would have a higher temperature at 18" and 24" and 30" below the surface compared to native ground. But if there were any increase, even a full degree or two, it would not be enough of a reason to drop the money on digging up the pavement. And while I'm not going to make the case that pavement helps water from draining through the surface into the subsurface and water table, neither can I make a case the moisture is seeping UP from the ground below and being stopped by the underside of the buried pavement. To me, it's a push. At best.

We here in Indiana are very lucky to have the tracks that we do. A thank you to Ed for the effort being put forth to make Plymouth a good place to race. The state has a bunch of good racers and even though we run mostly sprints there are some good late model races each year along. Even with the stock classes it's not hard to find some good racing through out the spring, summer, and fall.
Good luck to all the racers, pit crews, race teams, track promoters / owners, & fans in 2016.