[DAD]

Originally Posted by Quantrill Here are some comparison numbers for motors. 2008 ZX-10r Compression Ratio 12.9:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 155.91 bhp @ 12,100 rpm Measuerd Peak Torque 72.72 lbs.-ft @ 9,000 rpm 2008 GSXR Compression Ratio 12.5:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 156.48 bhp @ 12,100 rpm Measured Peak Torque 74.48 lbs. - ft. @ 9,950 rpm 2009 GSXR Compression Ratio 12.8:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 159.89 bph @ 10,600 rpm Measured Peak Torque 79.50 lbs.-ft @ 9,550 rpm 2008 R-1 Compression Ratio 12.7:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 152.62 bhp @ 11,750 rpm Measured Peak Torque 76.77 lbs. - ft. @ 8,900 rpm 2009 Honda CBR Compression Ratio 12.3:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 157.83 bhp @ 11,700 rpm Measured Peak Torque 76.80 lbs.-ft @ 9,900 rpm BMW Compression Ratio 13.0:1 Measured Peak Horsepower 184.75 bhp @ 13,150 rpm Measured Peak Torque 81.06 lbs. - ft. @ 10,250 rpm All stock numbers from APE Dad fill us in on the new ZX-10 numbers please..

Mark

Just like they were back in 2004 (gen1), then 2006 (gen2), and then in 2008 (gen3) they are light years ahead of some the other engine. Probably the reason I as well as you and Phil chose them over the other engine out there. I also chose them for the challenge? Everybody runs Yamaha and Suzuki, I kinda of like doing it a different way.

As a matter of fact the gen 1 was the bad azz Kawasaki motor. The gen 3 was actually de-tuned quite a bit from the gen 1 to make it more controllable by the rider or in our case the driver. When the gen 1 came on the cam it was almost impossible for the driver to prevent rear wheel slip. Horsepower is nice to talk about but being able to keep the thing hooked up is what wins races.

I like to call DYNO NUMBERS "Glittering Bull Sh1t" a good dyno operator can make a dyno read whatever he wants to, and this gives the owner of the dyno tuned motor something to talk about to his buddies.

"Well my Dyno Guy said yada yada yada".

The truth is usually brought to us on the race track, and it is usually a driver that delivers that truth to us.

Honest Dad himself

[Quantrill]

Mark Just like they were back in 2004 (gen1), then 2006 (gen2), and then in 2008 (gen3) they are light years ahead of some the other engine. Probably the reason I as well as you and Phil chose them over the other engine out there. I also chose them for the challenge? Everybody runs Yamaha and Suzuki, I kinda of like doing it a different way. As a matter of fact the gen 1 was the bad azz Kawasaki motor. The gen 3 was actually de-tuned quite a bit from the gen 1 to make it more controllable by the rider or in our case the driver. When the gen 1 came on the cam it was almost impossible for the driver to prevent rear wheel slip. Horsepower is nice to talk about but being able to keep the thing hooked up is what wins races. I like to call DYNO NUMBERS "Glittering Bull Sh1t" a good dyno operator can make a dyno read whatever he wants to, and this gives the owner of the dyno tuned motor something to talk about to his buddies. "Well my Dyno Guy said yada yada yada". The truth is usually brought to us on the race track, and it is usually a driver that delivers that truth to us.

So Bill

If all these Dyno numbers are BS then you nor anyone is making any future decisions based off of any dyno numbers? Ya,,, sure you dont...

Here is a link for A.P.E. on there testing numbers. It gives reported HP and actually HP. No sales BS.

http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/

Everyone take note on where these motors are building peak HP and torque and the increase in compression ratio related to gained HP. That and cam profile will tell you which motors are going to out preform others. Increased compression ratio, cam lift, and RPM. Put them together and what do you have? More POWER!!

Very good link for everyone to save when talking motors.

[Bradleyracing86]

Paul Davis has one of these but we haven't seen it at the track. With any new engine rules for our series this year are rumored to have a grace period. I actually wouldn't mind seeing this car run. Just to see what the hype is about.

[DAD]

Mark

To the best of my knowledge we have one Kawasaki zx10r racing with the MMSA and You guys have I think 3 zx10r's racing with you, would that be right? I chose mine back in 2004 mainly because it was different from the other motors and it did report pretty good numbers. I don't know why other people chose them, perhaps because the wiring was so simple, maybe because they liked motors that belched oil instead of fire or maybe because they had always ran Kawasaki's and did not feel like changing . Heck I don't know why other people do what they do. You have a few guy's a thousand plus miles away from you that are developing different and new engines for the sport. That is not a bad thing. Had somebody not set an old motorcycle motor in a junk midget frame years ago we would all be watching the races from the grandstands.

Why didn't racing groups not try to ban the zx10r 10 years ago when it showed a 20+ horsepower advantage on the other bike motors? I would like to think that the reason was that they did not read as many magazines as us enlightened ones did and we snuck in. If these high powered motors for their time were so hot why do you see so many other motors racing and not Kawasaki's?

To the casual reader one might think that you are trying to protect your advantage from the newer and better developed motors. That is your perogative to do so. However there is one thing you should keep in mind. If you are racing to win that old Kawasaki is going meet it just rewards someday just as all racing motor do. So when it does are you going to go out and buy a low mile 08 motor again, but this time 12,000 to 15,000 is going to be what they call low miles.

We already have some groups that cling to old and outdated motors and because of that reason their motors and parts for them just keep getting more expensive every day. I am all for stock motors but if we want to keep racing motorcycle powered race cars the cars may have to adapt to work with these new motors. When you start penalizing people who want to develop new engines, maybe just because they like a challenge. Like I keep on saying,

"You are cutting off your nose to spite your face".

Honest Dad himself

[HRPCHASSIS]

I hope "we" will not make it common practice to make rules "outlaw" an engine or other products based on peak values that a company on the secondary market publishes as the gospel! Slippery slope! Much more to racing than peak HP values!!! With that reasoning, the BMW is 20% better than all other manufacturers. Why is every team in AMA not racing or winning with the BMW? Why don't we just race on the dyno and whoever puts up the biggest number wins? My goodness, no track prep, no dust, no insurance, no tire bill, no wrecks "dang!", etc... Sorry I couldn't resist! Seriously, we don't know how this engine will perform in a sprint car. I'm putting my money on the best car/driver on a given night to win. Not the guy with the biggest peak...

Rick

[DAD]

Somebody is going to have to pay for that "stay dry" to clean the oil up from the dyno room floor!!

Honest Dad himself

[HRPCHASSIS]

Originally Posted by DAD Somebody is going to have to pay for that "stay dry" to clean the oil up from the dyno room floor!! Honest Dad himself

No oil on the floor if you run a Dry Sump! Dang... Now I opened that can of worms...

[DAD]

Rick

You ain't seen these fancy bay windows that I have installed in my old zx10's running a dry sump. One big advantage was when I switched to a dry sump I installed a belly pan to protect my hoses. The belly pan also does a good job of holding on to engine pieces and now i got a real neat collection of broken Kaw rods.

A rude awakening is when you pull the pan on a gen 4 zx10r for the first time. I did not imagine that they could make oil go in that many different directions at one time.

Honest Dad himself

[Quantrill]

Mark To the best of my knowledge we have one Kawasaki zx10r racing with the MMSA and You guys have I think 3 zx10r's racing with you, would that be right?

Yes this is correct, Believe me with all the trouble I have had I should have went with what I had before. GSXR, But I was determined to stop blowing motors and oil. And you know for about $100 or less I did it. Me and Phil spoke about the problems and approached it a little different but appear to both have achieved the same results without a dry sump. I have 1.5 years on my current Gen 2 motor.

Why didn't racing groups not try to ban the zx10r 10 years ago when it showed a 20+ horsepower advantage on the other bike motors? I would like to think that the reason was that they did not read as many magazines as us enlightened ones did and we snuck in. If these high powered motors for their time were so hot why do you see so many other motors racing and not Kawasaki's?

10 years ago was before my time and really before there was great excess to dynos, internet and other media. So I would say that 20hp was sales BS IMO. Plus as far as I know everyone was racing oil and water cooled GSXR and building them to the hilt.

To the casual reader one might think that you are trying to protect your advantage from the newer and better developed motors. That is your perogative to do so.

Really? And what advantage would that be? What I am after as a promoter is parity. I think we all have seen what happens when motors go un checked or you have rules that cant be backed up with sound tech. The old gentleman’s agreement does not work. So before casting that stone you better look at your reasons for making such a ridiculous statement.

However there is one thing you should keep in mind. If you are racing to win that old Kawasaki is going meet it just rewards someday just as all racing motor do. So when it does are you going to go out and buy a low mile 08 motor again, but this time 12,000 to 15,000 is going to be what they call low miles.

I have always said I would rather know what I have then what I think I have in a used motor. Buy that higher milage motor and put new bearings and rings in it. Let me cut you off,, Never seen a crank wear or gears go bad on one of these newer motors. I guess over time it will happen but when you think about the amount of time we actually put on it compared to the guys street riding. Wont happen. And if it does go on ebay or the so called motor forum classified section and by a crank or gears or what ever.

We already have some groups that cling to old and outdated motors and because of that reason their motors and parts for them just keep getting more expensive every day.

Who is this?

I am all for stock motors but if we want to keep racing motorcycle powered race cars the cars may have to adapt to work with these new motors. When you start penalizing people who want to develop new engines, maybe just because they like a challenge. Like I keep on saying, "You are cutting off your nose to spite your face".

At some point I agree these new motors will have to be allowed. And as I have stated on other debates with you I will agree with whatever our regional rules final decision is. But if you are going to allow these motors now then you might as well allow others to build there motors with the same cam specs, compression because that will be the only way to get these motors equal. Again look at the dwarf car guys. NO BMW and NO 2011 ZX-10? I guess we are all miss guided in your eyes?

[Quantrill]

I hope "we" will not make it common practice to make rules "outlaw" an engine or other products based on peak values that a company on the secondary market publishes as the gospel! Slippery slope! Much more to racing than peak HP values!!

Personally I would hope that people do their own research and come to their own conclusions. All one has to do is Google BMW dyno chart and see as much as there care to view. Then they can evaluate if it is fact, fiction or read between the lines of people trying to sell things.

With that reasoning, the BMW is 20% better than all other manufacturers. Why is every team in AMA not racing or winning with the BMW?

Rick you’re a smart guy, I know you know the answer to this but others may not. The reason all are not racing on the BMW in AMA is because there is parity. AMA allows the BMW motor in the America Super bike class only.

Here is a list of allowed bikes for the 2012 season.

EBR 1190RS - Kawasaki ZX-1000
Yamaha YZF-R1 - Suzuki GSX-R1000
Honda CBR 1000 - RR BMW S1000RR

Here are some high lights of the AMA Super bike class motor rules.

4.8 Engine Modifications

Note: In 2014, Non O.E. Surface treatments or surface coatings of
any kind will be prohibited unless specifically approved.
a. Cylinder Head
i. Cylinder heads must remain as homologated with the
following modifications allowed:

1. Porting and polishing of the cylinder head and intake
manifold normally associated with individual tuning
such as gas flowing of the cylinder head, including the
combustion chamber is allowed.
2. Welding or the addition of material is allowed.
3. The compression ratio is unrestricted.
4. Combustion chamber may be modified.
5. Replacement valve seats, guides, and guide seals are
permitted.
6. Cylinder head gasket surface may be machined
to allow the adjustment of compression ratio or
resurfacing to repair a warped cylinder surface deck.
d. Valves, Springs and Retainers
i. Valves must remain as homologated. No modifications
are allowed.
ii. The original number of valves must be maintained.
iii. Valves must remain in the same location and at the same
angle as the homologated model.
iv. Aftermarket or modified spring bases, springs, retainers
and other valve-train components are permitted

e. Camshafts and Sprockets
i. The original camshafts may be modified or replaced from
those fitted to the homologated motorcycle. They must
remain the same material as stock, or steel. They must be
approved and appear on the Eligible Equipment List.
ii. Offsetting the camshaft is not allowed. The camshaft
must remain in the homologated location.
iii. At the technical checks: for direct cam drive systems, the
cam lobe lift is measured; for non direct cam drive systems
(i.e. with rocker arms), the valve lift is measured.
iv. The method of drive must remain as homologated.
v. Cam sprockets can be modified or replaced to allow the
degreeing of camshafts.

They for all practical purpose are open motors.

Why don't we just race on the dyno and whoever puts up the biggest number wins?

Because it would be borring!!

My goodness, no track prep, no dust, no insurance, no tire bill, no wrecks "dang!", etc... Sorry I couldn't resist! Seriously, we don't know how this engine will performin a sprint car. I'm putting my money on the best car/driver on a given night to win. Not the guy with the biggest peak...

I am not going down the path to beat this horse anymore. I have other things to do in life. Debate away,, but with the internet and a little time facts can be checked pretty easily. Make up our own mind what is best to build this sport.