[HRPCHASSIS]

I have posted below a conversation via email I had with a customer about the BMW engine. I have been getting many calls of questions and concerns about this engine. I hope this will help bring you up to speed with where I am with the testing of this engine, and answer many of your questions and concerns. As always, constructive comments about this topic are always welcome!

Bobby Michnowicz
Hi, I don't want to get into a debate since I am lacking in knowledge in the mini sprint division. But, how does a BMW help mini sprint racing ? My first thought is that this raises the level of the cost of our sport dramatically, and will drive people out of minis and into dwarf cars. I'm sure you have thought it out and heard many people say the same thing. LIke I said, I don't have a clue, but my first thought is time to get out of minis... ??? First thing I think of is Toyota in midget racing. I'm just another dumb mini sprint racer wondering out loud here... thx

Rick Hench
Hi Bobby, I won't debate for or against the BMW being good for mini sprint racing. My debate is to why anyone would outlaw any manufacturer out of fear of the unknown! That is a very slippery slope in my opinion. No one has the BMW running at full potential yet. As far as I know I am the closest. I'm doing it out of interest, curiosity, and feasibility. The bike has very sophisticated electronics with many safety's built in for rider protection. The Computer monitors many things in milliseconds and anytime it sees an issue it goes into a safe mode. Safe mode is 50% maximum throttle butterfly opening with 100% input to the throttle by wire sensor. At 50% throttle the engine produces a max of 138 HP and 14,000 RPM. Nothing out of ordinary for any of the 1000 cc engines I've tested. Actually down a bit from the ZX10. I have diagnosed what the computer is looking for and I've found a company to work with to re-program "flash" the ECU in an effort to eliminate those faults. This is also not uncommon as we do that now for the new generation R1's and the other manufactures are close behind. This is a very reasonably priced modification and will most likely be required to do to all bike engines in the near future. As a matter of fact the new Honda has "traction control" wheelie prevention also. You may be faced with that when you get yours running? This is accomplished with the manufacturer putting wheel speed sensors on the front and rear wheels of the bike. The ECU monitors any speed differential in the 2 sensors and backs the throttle off to 50% if needed. It is intended to save the rider in the event of a wheelie or spinning the rear tire on a wet road or acceleration. This is when most accidents occur. That feature is in no way intended to be an unfair advantage for the mini sprint racer that puts one of these engines in a car. The positives of the BMW is that you will have to run the stock air box saving money, and the injectors can run gas or methanol with no conversion. Again saving money. Add a PC5, flash and go... I hope to know if this flash is going to work in the next few weeks. I will be posting my findings then. If anyone is worried about "traction control" in the true sense of the word, then outlaw wheel speed sensors and not a manufacturer or the term. If we do that then in a few years all bike engines will be outlawed because they will all be using it, again as a rider safety device. For more sake of argument, wheel speed sensors will never be practical or feasible on a dirt car because we change the differential of the rear tire circumference too much. Every tire combination would require a different calibration. The BMW S1000RR is getting much more plentiful and the price has dropped considerably. I'm finding these engines now at lower prices than the new GSXR's. I hope this makes you better prepared to make your own decision about the BMW and other bike engines.
Rick Hench

[openwheel44]

Great post Mr. Hench. If this doesn't start the wheels spinning in all that are concerned.....nothing will. I am really curious to see your findings when you get the bugs ironed out. Please keep us all posted.

I will say this...........after watching that Super Bike racing show on cable with Larry Pegram riding a 1000cc BMW, it doesn't look like it has much more poop than anything out there. But it if didn't have some unique quality, why would you be interested??? LOL

Would it just be easier to go back to the old oil and water cooled Suzuki motors with mechanical injection and total loss ignitions? LOL

[DAD]

how about this http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte...S1000RR_03.pdf You will have to convert them prices they are in Euros.

If you got the money there will always be somebody out there to help you spend it.

Kinda of like a bunch of old biddys setting around and talking trash isn't it. Worry Worry Worry!!!

Honest Dad himself

[jjones752]

Originally Posted by openwheel44 Would it just be easier to go back to the old oil and water cooled Suzuki motors with mechanical injection and total loss ignitions? LOL

I'll vote for that!

[DAD]

Originally Posted by jjones752 I'll vote for that!

Jonesy

I think You just might be a tad bit prejudiced ! TIC
https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/ima...tor/smilie.gif
Honest Dad himself

[jjones752]

You forgot self-absorbed and delusional!
I do think Rick has some exceptional points to make, specifically that the future pool of avalable engines is only going to get more and more sophisticated and complex; outlawing modern design and technology for its' own sake may not be the best course. Sooner or later the supply of "old guard" equipment (like my trusty ol' dinosaur, then the next generation) will dwindle, and then what?

[DAD]

Jonsey

I like to call it "Cutting off one's nose to spite one's face".

"Then what?" we call them "TQ's"

Honest Dad himself

[HRPCHASSIS]

Thank you Phil. I will post more information as I have it available.

DAD... I see you are referencing a Bosch stand alone control system on this thread, and a comment about someone willing to help you spend your money... I'm not sure what that has to do with my development research on the BMW engine or my post about what I have learned to this point. I'm not here nor did I post this information to debate stand alone control systems for any bike engines. These systems are available for any engine with electronic fuel injection and ignition. My research is being done using all of the stock factory electronics. I don't know that any sanctions allow these stand alone custom systems. For the record, I'm not in favor of nor advocating using any such system! That however could be a topic for another thread.

Rick

[DAD]

Originally Posted by HRPCHASSIS Thank you Phil. I will post more information as I have it available. DAD... I see you are referencing a Bosch stand alone control system on this thread, and a comment about someone willing to help you spend your money... I'm not sure what that has to do with my development research on the BMW engine or my post about what I have learned to this point. I'm not here nor did I post this information to debate stand alone control systems for any bike engines. These systems are available for any engine with electronic fuel injection and ignition. My research is being done using all of the stock factory electronics. I don't know that any sanctions allow these stand alone custom systems. For the record, I'm not in favor of nor advocating using any such system! That however could be a topic for another thread. Rick

Rick

There are always people that would spend $20,000.00 on a stand alone Bosch system complete with dash if they thought it would make them faster and they had the disposable income to invest in one.

I for one would probably work on the idea of changing out that super Ecm to a little simpler one from another bike. Just because they are called "brain boxes" does not mean we can't do a transplant. They all work off the same basics, the counts of the crank may be different but they all measure degrees, rpm, and seconds and convert the inputs into a result. The older bikes worked on an open loop when you introduce the o2 sensor then they changed to closed loop not the best thing for racing. Look at all those old mechanical injectors and mags, they do a pretty good job on a race engine.

I applaude your work on the BMW engine. I thought the price is right racers out there would love them 5000 euros ECM's. If you check back to some of my previous posts I have been one of the few supporters of the BMW. To arbitrarily out law an engine because of a magazine advertisement, and that is what the magazine reviews are is kinda of dumb.

You got my support bud. You got a dry sump for a gen 4 Kaw yet?


Honest Dad himself

[Quantrill]

Here are some comparison numbers for motors.

2008 ZX-10r

Compression Ratio 12.9:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 155.91 bhp @ 12,100 rpm
Measuerd Peak Torque 72.72 lbs.-ft @ 9,000 rpm

2008 GSXR

Compression Ratio 12.5:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 156.48 bhp @ 12,100 rpm
Measured Peak Torque 74.48 lbs. - ft. @ 9,950 rpm

2009 GSXR

Compression Ratio 12.8:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 159.89 bph @ 10,600 rpm
Measured Peak Torque 79.50 lbs.-ft @ 9,550 rpm

2008 R-1

Compression Ratio 12.7:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 152.62 bhp @ 11,750 rpm
Measured Peak Torque 76.77 lbs. - ft. @ 8,900 rpm

2009 Honda CBR

Compression Ratio 12.3:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 157.83 bhp @ 11,700 rpm
Measured Peak Torque 76.80 lbs.-ft @ 9,900 rpm

BMW

Compression Ratio 13.0:1
Measured Peak Horsepower 184.75 bhp @ 13,150 rpm
Measured Peak Torque 81.06 lbs. - ft. @ 10,250 rpm

All stock numbers from APE

Dad fill us in on the new ZX-10 numbers please..