[TQ97]

I was 13 and had just started to turn my attention from baseball to racing thanks to the Thunder series. I remember being in Rushville visiting for a couple weeks from California, staying with a friend. When we came in that night, my friend's Dad told me what had happened and with weird timing, it was on Sportscenter right after that.

As a recipient of the Rich Vogler Scholarship, I concur with DO, it's a great way to honor his memory. Winning that scholarship for me was one of the proudest moments of my life, to be associated with the Vogler name. At least once a year, I'll pick up the Vogler book and it will become my focus for a week or so. For anyone that hasn't read it, I highly encourage it.

Rob...I appreciate you sharing not only here but also in that book your memories of that night as hard as it must be. I've often wanted to be able to sit down and buy you a beer just to listen to you talk about what you learned from a man that was taken far too early from us. RIP Rich.

[racefan20]

Originally Posted by Fisher79 Not trying to rain on the parade here, but I never did understand why all the fans out there liked to cheer for a guy who, a lot of the time, appeared to not really care whether or not he ran over you or turned you around, as long as he got around you. He won a ton of races and the statistics make his greatness pretty evident, but there are more than a handful of guys who won a bunch as well and won them in a much cleaner fashion, overall. Fire away.

OK, I will. Derek you are an ass. Mrs Vogler sometimes reads this forum. I hope you are proud of yourself for taking a shot at someone who cant respond. I really dont care what you think but as Jerry said there is a time and place for everything and airing these feelings of yours on an open public forum isnt it. Hope you are proud of yourself.

[I Miss Manzy]

Originally Posted by racefan20 OK, I will. Derek you are an ass. Mrs Vogler sometimes reads this forum. I hope you are proud of yourself for taking a shot at someone who cant respond. I really dont care what you think but as Jerry said there is a time and place for everything and airing these feelings of yours on an open public forum isnt it. Hope you are proud of yourself.

Amen,John.As we used to say "Some people weren't brought up,they were dragged up." Has it really been 19 years?Rest In Peace Rich , and know there are those that remember you and talk fondly of you still.

[racer-x]

I didnt go to many races live that year but i watched almost all the thunder races exept the race at Salem that night.The news media would never tell about a close finish or something good that happened in racing unless it was a tragedy like what happened that evening.I can still remember hearing over and over on the radio the following day how he had passed away and was credited for winning the race.

[LEADERS EDGE]

Mrs. Vogler is a strong women. Most people forget she lost her husband and Rich got hurt at the Hut in the same year as well. People forget how bad he got hurt and came back.

The thing about racing with Rich was this: You found out immediately how bad you wanted to do it when running with him. The group of midget guys in the midwest in the Mid-Late 70's early 80's: Sleepy,Bob Wente Sr.,Danny Frye Jr., Kenyon,Lotshaw, Lonnie Caruthers, Nuckles Bros., Schrader,Olson,Knepper,Bigelow etc... were battle hardened racers and one of the reasons the competition level was so tough was because of Rich and the level he made you drive at. The new guys were going to be tested to see if they had what it took and the old guys to see how bad they still wanted to do it.

You knew two things A) If there was a race anywhere on a given night, he was going to be there(Unless another show paid more.) and B) He was going to drive whatever car he could and even if it was the biggest box there he was going to make it go fast. Faster than anyone else there could. The last time I saw a LTC Midget with VW win anywhere was the late 80's at South Bend at a WWAR Midget show when he just killed the field. There were nice newer cars there as well, but he was gone.

The odd thing with Rich was that it seemed as if his competitive drive was so internal and within himself that even when he was angry he never went after any one driver (That I can think of) physically. Many went after him, but I never saw him go at anyone else, even when confronted. He often did some things that cost himself positions or tore up eqipment because he was mad, but never anything too confrontational in the pits.

I knew he would ***** to the officials or pit drivers against each other by dropping notes in each ones ears and things of that nature, but I always felt that was just more gamesmenship to Jedi Mind F*** people to use to his advantage later.

I honestly don't believe, and I say this with all regards to the likes of Foyt and Stewart, I honestly don't believe that anyone wanted it worse and I honestly don't believe there is another person who has ever done it that wanted to do it worse than Rich and was willing to lay it all on the line at every momet of doing it. There were many drivers with more talent, but none have ever been able to mix talent and desire together the way he did.

I just wish I could have been a "fan" of his, but when you raced against him(or in my case, had family race against him) he competed so hard that it is hard to be objective. Thats good though, because thats what it should be like. No feelings other than just pure respect.

Rich died at the age of 40, which is my age now, but a guy like Rich lived 10 full lifetimes compared to a guy like me. To think of all he did in a 40 year span is amazing.

To Chuck and Shaw:

Perhaps I should have started a new thread this morning titled something like "I don't understand all the Vogler worship, and now I'm welcome to discuss it on IOW because the anniversary of his death has passed."

Please. You two, plus Hoover and a select few others, would have bashed me anyway. The Vogler topic was on the table, and I responded to it.

Hoover:

First and foremost, if you'd like to call me an ass to my face I'd be more than glad to have that talk with you on Sunday. You know exactly who I am and exactly where we sit.

Secondly, I know you're the chief Vogler apologist, so clearly this post was going to reel you in. As for Rich's mother reading this, I'm not sure what I said that was out of line. I didn't dance on the guy's grave, anytime a racer is lost it's tragic. I even tipped my cap to his greatness, which is something that can't be argued. I simply shared a pretty widespread opinion about a guy who was the topic of the post. The lady has been around racing for a long time, I'm sure she's run across more than a few folks who didn't care for her son's driving.

I get tired of the ass-kissing that goes on here. How dare I post a nugget of truth that might shine through all the bullsh*t?

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by Fisher79 To Chuck and Shaw: Perhaps I should have started a new thread this morning titled something like "I don't understand all the Vogler worship, and now I'm welcome to discuss it on IOW because the anniversary of his death has passed." Please. You two, plus Hoover and a select few others, would have bashed me anyway. The Vogler topic was on the table, and I responded to it. Hoover: First and foremost, if you'd like to call me an ass to my face I'd be more than glad to have that talk with you on Sunday. You know exactly who I am and exactly where we sit. Secondly, I know you're the chief Vogler apologist, so clearly this post was going to reel you in. As for Rich's mother reading this, I'm not sure what I said that was out of line. I didn't dance on the guy's grave, anytime a racer is lost it's tragic. I even tipped my cap to his greatness, which is something that can't be argued. I simply shared a pretty widespread opinion about a guy who was the topic of the post. The lady has been around racing for a long time, I'm sure she's run across more than a few folks who didn't care for her son's driving. I get tired of the ass-kissing that goes on here. How dare I post a nugget of truth that might shine through all the bullsh*t?

I didn't kiss anybodys a$$ and didn't bash you. I certainly didn't declare Rich the Greatest of all time.

Theres are several breeds of racer out there! None of em I Hate, Some I dislike some moves they make or don't like seeing em win everything

1. The nice guy on and off the track who'd never intentionally throw a tail on you. You can talk to before and after and enjoys racing. This guy will win when he's setup better than everyone else or Hits his marks and out drives others who can't get it that night. He's rarely dominant but a good racer

2. The Nice guy but intense who's basically clean, Wins a lot of races but when it comes to throwing the tail and taking your line or knocking you out of the way, Well they just don't do it

3. The super intense, "I got a chip on my shoulder, A race to win and something to prove" guy. The guy that will throw the tail or knock your Nerf to get you out of his way if that's what it takes to win. Hes also the guy who'll blow by you like your sitting still especially under non optimal racing conditions. This guy WINS A TON and Tears a lot of stuff up too. One reason he's in victory lane so much is he *WANTS IT MORE THAN THE OTHERS* I've seen em drive top O the line equipment and **** boxes and still win. They drive through the hole, Over the cushion and slice a hole between cars others wouldn't chance.

4. The #2s that are actually #3s but are driving their own equiptment on a budget. Someone else paying the bills and demanding excellence, Well they just might race like #3s

If the WOO started without a couple #3s in the mix. Kinser and Swindell. I doubt they'd of lasted two years. To this day I saw Kinser take the front wing off Dollansky because he was com-min and wouldn't give a inch! which is also why he was the only one in the top ten to gain more than one position.

Id put names with the descriptions but you and they know who they are. You go to watch them like em or not, You go for the danger element. The racers know hes the man to beat EVERY NIGHT and to do so is proving your own point! If you can't run with em. You stay out of their way. Its sad but its true

The thing is, RICH was clearly #3, The man to beat, The intimidating.
Did he do great things? YES! Making Indy and Qualifying for his first CUP race were small overall Did he do some dirty things, Some things im sure he wasn't even proud of. Sure! He's far from the only one.
Thats not apologetic.
THATS A FACT.

I don't know a darn thing what Rich was like off the track, I only seen him closeup in person a few times and it was near a race time. The look on his face was STONE DETERMINATION, Something I see in only about a quarter of the drivers. Away from the track their probably teddy bears. On the track their MONSTERS! Its why I go. Im all for clean competitive racing! There's also something that takes it *OVER THE TOP* and more exciting to me than any other form of Motorsports save maybe Supercross. IF Reed and Stewart aren't trying to kick the other of the bike or stuff each other in the corners, I'd doubt they'd draw 30g plus a race either.

Chuck, who's got nothing against Fisher other than I thought it was the inappropriate place and time to be controversial.

[racefan20]

Originally Posted by Fisher79 To Chuck and Shaw: Perhaps I should have started a new thread this morning titled something like "I don't understand all the Vogler worship, and now I'm welcome to discuss it on IOW because the anniversary of his death has passed." Please. You two, plus Hoover and a select few others, would have bashed me anyway. The Vogler topic was on the table, and I responded to it. Hoover: First and foremost, if you'd like to call me an ass to my face I'd be more than glad to have that talk with you on Sunday. You know exactly who I am and exactly where we sit. Secondly, I know you're the chief Vogler apologist, so clearly this post was going to reel you in. As for Rich's mother reading this, I'm not sure what I said that was out of line. I didn't dance on the guy's grave, anytime a racer is lost it's tragic. I even tipped my cap to his greatness, which is something that can't be argued. I simply shared a pretty widespread opinion about a guy who was the topic of the post. The lady has been around racing for a long time, I'm sure she's run across more than a few folks who didn't care for her son's driving. I get tired of the ass-kissing that goes on here. How dare I post a nugget of truth that might shine through all the bullsh*t?

YA know Derek you arent and never have been important enough to me to bother knowing where you sit at Kokomo but if you want me to call you an ass to your face and you know where I sit(top row just to the turn 4 side of the booth) have at it. Actually I WASNT a Rich Vogler fan when he was racing, I rooted for Steve Butler. My late wife began helping Mrs Vogler with the scholarship many years ago and through that I got to know her and admire her spirit and her will to keep her sons name alive by helping others. So I am much more an Eleanor apologist than a Rich apologist. Either way I dont appreciate you kicking dirt on someones grave and hurting the feelings of someone I care very much for and am protective of. She has done more for the racing communuity than someone like you can even imagine. You on the other hand only want to get on your soapbox and kick people around from the safety of your keyboard. A case in point is your accusations that BC was little rich kid that bought his way into the sport, which if you actually had the facts you would know is absolutely not true. I know that I am wasting my time on this rant but i had to get this off of my chest. You know he must have really got under your skin if you cant get over it 19 years later. Grow up!!

[Prairie Dog]

Alot of people talk about the day Rich crashed at Indy, then flew to Angell Park in Sun Prairie Wi to run a midget. I wasn't there, but that's pretty Cool if you ask me.

[Eatin Dirt]

I was also at the Kings Royal that night and as I was walking out was told of the events at Salem. It was as if all the air instantly exited my body. He was a GREAT one.