[jjones752]

Originally Posted by DAD Jim Yep that chain is expensive. The efficiency of a Hypoid gear with a very low mounted pinion aka rear end is down around 90 to 95% multiply that by the 95 to 98% efficiency for the quick change gears and you get something like a 20% loss of efficiency. Them rear ends get hot and that heat (friction) is due to sliding of the teeth in the Hypoid type gears. This eats up horse power. That is why they make special oils for Hypoid gears because regular oils just aren't strong enough to work with them. Problem:: if you placed the motor fore and aft in the center of the chassis the drive shaft is already offset to the right several inches. Place it 6" offset to the left and the drive shaft is probably going to be inline with the brake pedal. Then you got to figure out how to raise the drive line or drop the engine enough to get the drive shaft in-line. TQ's fix this problem by chopping off the transmission. That worked OK with the low rpm of the 750 Honda but to try to gear for 13,000 RPM's + with an 82" tire with only the rear end gears is not possible right now. Boy that is going to be a strange looking quick change. I could see probably a jack shaft with timing belt being used for both motor placement and gear ratio. When somebody finally does this I'm going to put two of these things in a race car and go race full midgets Ala dual engine go Karts. They weren't a whole lot faster but boy did they give you a kick in the butt when you got down on them. Wonder if they would allow Dual Right Rears? Honest Dad himself

So M/E = Mechanical Efficiency: got it.
I haven't measured crank to countershaft c/l on my oiler, but just eyeballing a Kenyon Car they look to be a tad over 6".
There are some high-winding Suzuki 4-cammers out there in TQ land, so they must have figured the gearing out.
Your jackshaft/timing belt setup would add quite a bit of bulk and probably suck even more power, not to mention the additional bulk and weight of 2 gearboxes; the first Synergy V-8 the Kiwis built had two cranks and a central drive in a common crankcase, a similar idea but eliminating the gearboxes, kinda like the BRM H-16 F1 motors from around 1967 (2 stacked boxer-8's with a central power take-off). They scrapped that for a single crank, due to guess what? Excess weight, and power drag. Hey, didn't Mel & Don already do that about 20 years ago?

[DAD]

Originally Posted by jjones752 So M/E = Mechanical Efficiency: got it. I haven't measured crank to countershaft c/l on my oiler, but just eyeballing a Kenyon Car they look to be a tad over 6". There are some high-winding Suzuki 4-cammers out there in TQ land, so they must have figured the gearing out. Your jackshaft/timing belt setup would add quite a bit of bulk and probably suck even more power, not to mention the additional bulk and weight of 2 gearboxes; the first Synergy V-8 the Kiwis built had two cranks and a central drive in a common crankcase, a similar idea but eliminating the gearboxes, kinda like the BRM H-16 F1 motors from around 1967 (2 stacked boxer-8's with a central power take-off). They scrapped that for a single crank, due to guess what? Excess weight, and power drag. Hey, didn't Mel & Don already do that about 20 years ago?

Jim

Those TQ's have a much smaller right rear 68" ? also those are old school 11-12000 rpm suzukie's.

Cut the gear boxes off tie them together with timing belts one of the most efficient forms of power transmission around, even better than chain.

It was a guy named Runyon (had a tool rental business) I think from Indy. Had a crankcase and crankshaft made and used 2 old school Suzuki cylinders and heads. It ran pretty good. But then his driver (his son) decided he was smarter than the old man. He went out and got a ride or two on his own and found out he wasn't as hot as he thought he was. The old man said to hell with racing, best I can remember and he sold all the molds and things a few years ago. Heck the Kenyon's might have bought the stuff.

When comparing these new motors (05-up) to those old school motors it is kinda of like comparing a flat head Ford to 410 sprint motor.

Honest Dad himself

[PatrickMead#13]

I'll measure the r1 this weekend so we have a number out there. I started this topic because I bought a short wheel base midget and have had a gsxr600 sitting in my office for a while. My main intention is to build a ft Wayne ride. I figure a 600 might just work for a trial and error and it's free.....lol I even thought of using a belt drive like a Harley for it but the rules state it must be a quick change and drive shaft. They let the kenyons run indoors so I figured what the heck.... It's legal for mmsa and in Florida but I haven't seen anyone do it yet to my knowledge. This whole thing came up as I like to tinker and try new things. The demon bullet #13 will still be a chain drive, but if I can iron out the bugs with black betty, I might just do it on my other car down the road. I'm just like DAD and figuring new things out is a good thing to do and it opens up avenues for outside the box thinking which is a great thing....

[C Jagger]

I think a minisprint guy I know was thinking of doing the same thing with a 600 motorcycle engine and installing in a midget but they wouldnt approve. Maybe email Tony at Rumbleseries@aol.com to confirm so you will have a early jump on next year. He is usually quick to respond.They let me bring in a Quad 4 this year but I got prior approval and I guess they had ran in the past.
Just a thought.

Chris

[PatrickMead#13]

Could do a busa......

[suzuki756]

I have seen a v8 Suzuki gsxr1000 cylinders and heads on a billet made block. Crank was made just like sprint car had injection and all . I wish I could see it run in a mini

[jjones752]

Here's the Kenyon; only time I ever saw one run in person was at a BCRA race at Santa Maria, CA. Wheeler Gresham won with a Kenyon under the hood. It was a sweet-sounding little motor, too.
Kenyon V8.jpg

MelKenyonSuzuki.jpg

[PatrickMead#13]

Originally Posted by jjones752 Here's the Kenyon; only time I ever saw one run in person was at a BCRA race at Santa Maria, CA. Wheeler Gresham won with a Kenyon under the hood. It was a sweet-sounding little motor, too. Attachment 10425 Attachment 10426

Hmmmmm...... The only downside to doing something like that is if it worked well and was upfront these days, it would be deemed "no go" pretty quickly I bet. They make a busa v8 for the kit car guys that would kick a$$, but again, how long til it would get "looked out"? I wish I could find one of the v4 engines as this car is pretty short up front. Maybe a vw or a Mazda if I get turned down for the 600 idea.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by PatrickMead#13 Hmmmmm...... The only downside to doing something like that is if it worked well and was upfront these days, it would be deemed "no go" pretty quickly I bet. They make a busa v8 for the kit car guys that would kick a$$, but again, how long til it would get "looked out"? I wish I could find one of the v4 engines as this car is pretty short up front. Maybe a vw or a Mazda if I get turned down for the 600 idea.

Pat

They even outlawed the little V8 cycle engine powered car at the Chili Bowl, a bastion for out of the box thinking (Left front skis left front cycle wheels, dragster roll bars, titanium frames and on and on) The powers that be just don't want to rock the boat any more they want to stay with the status quo, a sad state of affairs.

Honest Dad himself

[jjones752]

The Kenyon was banned in the 80's by USAC, at the time I saw it run BCRA may have been the only place it was legal. Brad Mosen ran the Synergy V8 at the Chili Bowl and they banned it immediately; you know if it's illegal at Tulsa it's gotta be something special...