[MRAY3]

Never saw a $40,000 153 Chevy ll or 2.3 Pinto engine, but I have seen plenty of $30,000 to $40,000 purpose built midget engines. Engine costs escalated quickly when the rules makers allowed aftermarket blocks, heads, and crankshafts to replace the stock production blocks, heads, and cranks. Stock production blocks and heads can be found in salvage yards across the country for $250 to $500. Brand new O.E.M. blocks can be bought in automobile dealership parts departments for well under $1000. Brand new forged O.E.M. crankshafts can be purchased from the same parts departments for less than $300. Aftermarket blocks for purpose built midget engines sell for over $6000. Cranks are over $2500. Write the rules to make the engines remain completely "stock" and see how hard it becomes to enforce the rules.

[Backitin]

Yep, it is impossible to enforce a completely stock engine. Inless it was factory sealed. I also promise you that if you are racing in a box stock engine class your surrounded by cheaters.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by bobby01 This is exactly how a 2.3 pinto and a 153 Chevy II became $40,000 National midget engines.We as a group continue to make these same mistakes.Why as group do we keep making the same mistakes as far back as the days of the V/8 60 Ford and the Offy.I guess my question is why do we expect a different outcome. Leave them stock and go race.

Bobby

The difference between these litle motors and the V8 60 or iron duke is they start out much much more efficient than the old Iron Motors...They don't need a lot to perk them up and are quite capable of running very good in stock condition. The other thing is they get better every year. Now Super Chargers and Turbo Chargers are coming into popularity and motor size is shrinking..At 70 years old I guess I shouldn't be too hep on change, but the only way to keep cost down is to keep current and update as motors blow up and they will do just that. Forget about repairs and rebuilds just too expensive Bob. These guys are designing these engines for way over 100,000 in durability on the streets with Jr trying to blow them up. The parts are plenty strong stock. The newest engines have what is called direct injection kind of like a diesel and guess what they increased compression and Horsepower came along for the ride. To be a success this series has to think different than the other older classes.

The mini sprints worked this way for years unfortunately engines for them are becoming more expensive and harder to adapt to the cars. Right now the D2 seems to be the logical answer.

There is a ton of power left in these engines and I wouldn't be too surprised if the National divisions upped their displacement to 2500cc's for DOC engines to see somebody build one for serious competition.

Honest Dad himself

[MRAY3]

How many car owners will be willing to stick around after the races to tear engines down in a dirty pit area? How often will racers come back when their engine is torn apart after every win, or top 3, or top 5? Keep the rules simple but enforceable. The sealed, single supplier "stock" engine concept has been tried. Where is it today? Even the single supplier had allegations levied against him for some engines being more "stock" than others! The costs can be cut to a reasonable level without midget racing becoming the open wheel Hobby Stock division.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by MRAY3 How many car owners will be willing to stick around after the races to tear engines down in a dirty pit area? How often will racers come back when their engine is torn apart after every win, or top 3, or top 5? Keep the rules simple but enforceable. The sealed, single supplier "stock" engine concept has been tried. Where is it today? Even the single supplier had allegations levied against him for some engines being more "stock" than others! The costs can be cut to a reasonable level without midget racing becoming the open wheel Hobby Stock division.

M

They can be checked pretty quickly and cleanly if you use your head. Me a check with a bore gauge would probably be sufficient to satisfy me. The valve set up in the head start to develop interference problems if you get much more aggressive with the ramps. They really don't like big duration numbers, lift seems to help the most. The other thing is racers should be less involved with engine modifications and more involved with racing.

Honest Dad himself

[Shreffler21]

[TQ29m]

This issue needs to be resolved as soon as possible, this, properly worked out, could easily be the recovery of reasonable cost midget racing, and with the right results with common sense rules will get a lot of attention, stock block, head, and crank, no head work, no Ti, just a valve job and springs, that with some compression, and the proper cams should be enough to make 250hp, and run a long while, cost, 3-4 K with some shopping. Bob

[MRAY3]

Dad, if the rules say 166 cubic inches, then I’m fine with checking bore and stroke. If the rules say “stock,” I’m not ok with a simple bore and stroke check. If the rules say no machining, grinding, sanding, or reshaping of the ports, and ports must be left as cast, use a bore scope down the intake runners. If a formal protest has been made, remove the injection manifold, measure and look. If the rules say stock cam, I’m not ok with simply measuring lift and looking for part numbers. The ONLY way to PROPERLY enforce a “stock” cam rule is with a camshaft measuring system (Cam Doctor, Cam Pro Plus, etc.) and you must have all the factory specs. When they say “stock” does that include deck heights and squish areas? What are the factory specs and tolerances? In today’s world, if you DQ somebody, you had better be ready to back up your ruling in court. Some people don’t take Defamation of Character lightly. I have been around this racing game for a while. I have been an engine builder and engine tech inspector for everything from Karts (2 and 4 cycle) up to and including Indy cars. For eleven years, I measured and inspected every engine that qualified for the Indy 500. I’m a black and white kind of guy. Whether there is a performance gain or not, rules are rules. If you write rules, you must be able to enforce them. Positively determining whether or not an engine is “stock,” in a timely manner, at the race track would be quite a task. I’m not so sure any of the D2 organizations are quite up to that task. That’s my never - to - be- humble opinion.

Mark Ray

[Shreffler21]

I guess my opinion of stock is, throttle body's and wet sumps , no aftermarket cams,springs,rods, pistons, wrist pins or machining. No timing gears or anything. Basically a 800$ core bolt on a header and an oil pan , maybe an accusump and race

[Wayne Davis]

The biggest cost of these engines are the "BOLT ON" accessorizes. Headers/Ing. system/Oil pan/Injection/Pumps... been told by a few builders that a long block D-2 ecotech is like $1500-$2000 without oil pan and 2 others $2500-$3000 with oil pan, race ready (long block)....You have a 1 time $7500/$10,000 investment for the complete race ready engine,,,or you can still go out buy the bolt ons and get your own long block have the machine work done yourself and put it together for less then that...hell just put a claim rule on the long block (Block/Crankshaft/Head and Cams) say $1700 without oil pan or $2300 with oil pan....no tech...no teardown...problem solved...if you refuse to sell the engine (long block) you will not be allowed to race at ANY Division II series period for a year.