[El1teBr33ze]

After some thinking last night...

1) You're right, this National Rules thing is not going to work. If you came up with National Rules, organizations would still say "We're going by National Rules, but with this exception." And nothing is going to stop them. Can't be done.
2) I don't agree on banning alcohol. Everyone's right, about half cars are on alcohol, so if we're trying to make this affordable, you can't make all the alcohol guys go back to gas.
3) When it comes to ILSA, if you pay attention, it states "this will be monitored." So if it comes May 1 and alky guys aren't happy, and aren't looking competitive, then that WILL BE changed. Plain and simple. I agree, this might hurt car count until it's fixed. But I really don't see it lasting long. I would imagine that if alky goes down to 975, gas will go back down to 925.
4) When it comes to car count, it won't be as bad as people are making it out to be. As long as my organization is running, call me crazy, but I'm not traveling 5-7 hours to go somewhere else and make the same amount of money.

[Quantrill]

What we have here is a bunch of us old farts sitting around their computers with nothing better to do than pound their keyboards. I enjoy it and the guys out in the shop think that it's great idea also better in the office than out in the shop. Someday we might hit on a good idea. This board was designed to do exactly what it is doing, and that is getting people to talk to one another about problems they see in the sport and also what they see that is good in the sport. We aint exactly playing golf where they have a 200 year old set of rules, so what we are doing is we just kind of throw stuff out there and let people read it digest it if it good we build on it if it's junk it kind of dies on the page. The guys in Il want to get rid of menthanol. Since they are a farming state maybe they should look at ethanol. I know that back when we started racing karts, it was methanol only that might be because the fuel tank sat on the back of the kart next to the exhaust pipe. They figured if you knocked of the fuel tank the explousion would be smaller with menthanol than gasoline and they could always put the fire out by peeing on it Not so with gasoline. So then we move up to upright sprints and low and behold they want to run gasoline only. In go karts a # drill was all that was required to convert from gas to alky. Converting an electronic injector over is almost as simple. A lot of people have not learned to do things for themselves. Being an old industrial teacher I think it because they took Industrial arts out of schools and replaced it with can't we all be equal and feel good about ourselves courses where everybody can make an A and move right on up and out into the "not so real world". You guy's talk to the "engine Garu's" and oh yea we can do that going to cost you about $3500.00 and nobody will out run you with my stuff "HELL-OOOH". Welcome to the real world. Methanol gives you a little more power, it does not have to cost an arm and a leg to change over. If you blow your motor up you can switch it over to your new motor, and you probably will blow it up if you are really racing. Blown motors are expensive but if you want to race you got to pay the price! I think the big fear with menthanol is the fear of the unknown and a bunch of old wives tales hanging around about cost. I called one of those guys about converting over to methanol "wow". I have been bull*hiting long enough to know when somebody is shooting me a line of bull. So I thanked him for his time and went right about my job of converting over to methanol. If there is something you want to know about menthanol injection call me at 502-778-6833 8am to 6pm ask for Bill. I will not shoot you a long line of bull. If you wan't to do it your self I will try get you started in the right direction.

Well said DAD,,, one more thing... if these orginazation have such a fear that alky kits are the end of this sport or such an unfair advantage then maybe they should do a better job educating the new racers on the benefits of gas!


Elite,,,, your OK with a #50 disadvantage to a gas car??

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Quantrill Well said DAD,,, one more thing... if these orginazation have such a fear that alky kits are the end of this sport or such an unfair advantage then maybe they should do a better job educating the new racers on the benefits of gas! Elite,,,, your OK with a #50 disadvantage to a gas car??

Aint got no choice on weight disadvantage, anything I can do to raise weight helps me My driver grew up big but good. We can still beat the pant off of most racers on one of our good days when we get those remote shocks dialed in. Fuel or weight or even engine internals are not what makes a good racer. But they do help us make an excuses for why we are not running so good. We start every race over 1000 lbs car and driver. We could probably do pretty good in Il. but boy that is a long but beautiful drive. Do what you think is right for your group and don't look back. I will keep on pounding my keyboard.


By the way a set of set of throttle bodies cost about $200.00 on ebay if you want to go back to gasoline.

I have a stock set at home I could change back to gasoline in 15 min. Drain and dry tank, change out throttle bodies fill with gasoline change computer program adj fuel pres and go. Thanks to modern injectors we have the technology we can do it!!!

[openwheel44]

Let's go back to around 1986 when this class was getting off the ground. The racing hub was down around Tulsa. Seriously "outlaw" style uprights. Mega buck motors. The class was doing ok. Ok enough that other groups started popping up around the midwest. A group of promoters, racers and track owners just happened to get together at a Chili Bowl race one year and came up with a GENERAL ACCEPTABLE rules. The first main concern....motor size and motor position. Then basic chassis requirements. They were "suggested rules" for everyone to use or not. But you know what.....everyone ran with them and we grew. Left some minor rules for the local organizations. There was no fee to be in this National system. Not points system. Just suggested guidelines. My point is.....Don't tell me a National Set Of Rules can't be done. BS. How you thing this class got off the ground in the first place? How you think most of these groups came up with the general rules they have now? Anyway....I know how we got to this point, I was involved back then. No one is screaming a set of rules EVERYONE has to follow by the book. Right now.....simple weight/fuel rules. Whatever they end up. Most of the different groups basic rules are close enough on the uprights now. I just want them FAIR for all. But a descent set of basic National Rules could go a long way to sell a "special race" and attract more cars. Why are we having this discussion? Because we have different rules all across the nation concerning certain things. How in the heck is that going to help the class? 600 guys have an "accepted" set of general rules they go by whether they are NMMA or not. Most of the big races they have go by those basics. Why can't we have the same thing? Seems to work for them. Works for a lot of different classes. Yeah.......I may not like them in the end and at that point......I will decide if I what to continue racing Lightning Sprints. Just like everyone will have that option.

This weight/fuel "thing" started before the Illinois group announced their deal. Their actions are the ones that finally got people THINKING out loud. Now.....we are all asking ourselves.......where this class is going? That's a good thing. Nip any problems in the bud early. Don't let it fester and end up hurting the class. I have seen plenty of that since 1986.

All this typing and all the BSing and no one has yet to produce any information stating alky is that much superior to gas to warrant penalizing the alky guys with so much weight.........any weight actually.

[El1teBr33ze]

Originally Posted by Quantrill Elite,,,, your OK with a #50 disadvantage to a gas car??

Mark, I've said before I'm running gas and I don't care if we run even weight. I'm a gas guy on the alky side. I'm just saying that's what's going to happen.

[STUMPS88]

The new 600 micro class for Badger midgets at Angell Park has in their rules '' Fuel is restricted to methanol only''...And Bladder tanks Mandatory...Maybe check out their rules...

http://www.bmara.com/BMARAMicroSeriesRules.pdf

[Wayne Davis]

Here is where I am coming from;;;;

Gas or Alky can be the same or but no more then a 25# break

The weight rule for my group and the winternationals is not for GAS OR ALKY it is the Steve Kinser rule in the WoO... it allows heavier drivers not to be at such a disadvantage but NOT putting the lighter guy's at a disadvantage...it is way safer and cheaper to add weight then take it off...2 of the best places are flat lead in the bottom of the seat or a STEEL floor pan....cheap and easy to install and remove....

As I have read every thread concerning Lighting Sprints on IOW and other forums I do listen for I am trying to bring in each and every group across the US to Florida....

If each and everyone of you would download and compare every Association's or Series rules you will find out they are very close already....I hope to meet with some of the other promoters either at the PRI promoters workshop in Dec. or at Tulsa and Florida...

As I have stated The reason I am on here is to hear and listen to YOU the racer and come up with common rules for Florida. Tulsa is an AMSA event and rules...Al Archdale Jr.is a ILLS event rules...Even if it is a SSLS event I want you and your Club/Series to feel that this is part of your deal just as I did last year and include every series name that was represented on the tee-shirts....Common Rules and ground for EVERYONE....the only thing as far as any rule that no one has is the 1352 Hyabusa/ZX-14 With a Quick Change rule...this was put in place to allow people to go out and purchase a used midget add that engine and come race. The engine is only 4 HP more then a 1000cc but it does have more torque thus the weight difference.

We could not do this many years ago,,,hash out things...discuss rules and events like we can now and as Mark said, each club/series has their own small rules just as I have mine but a set set of National TYPE rules would be good for our growth...Wayne Davis

[DAD]

Originally Posted by openwheel44 Let's go back to around 1986 when this class was getting off the ground. The racing hub was down around Tulsa. Seriously "outlaw" style uprights. Mega buck motors. The class was doing ok. Ok enough that other groups started popping up around the midwest. A group of promoters, racers and track owners just happened to get together at a Chili Bowl race one year and came up with a GENERAL ACCEPTABLE rules. The first main concern....motor size and motor position. Then basic chassis requirements. They were "suggested rules" for everyone to use or not. But you know what.....everyone ran with them and we grew. Left some minor rules for the local organizations. There was no fee to be in this National system. Not points system. Just suggested guidelines. My point is.....Don't tell me a National Set Of Rules can't be done. BS. How you thing this class got off the ground in the first place? How you think most of these groups came up with the general rules they have now? Anyway....I know how we got to this point, I was involved back then. No one is screaming a set of rules EVERYONE has to follow by the book. Right now.....simple weight/fuel rules. Whatever they end up. Most of the different groups basic rules are close enough on the uprights now. I just want them FAIR for all. But a descent set of basic National Rules could go a long way to sell a "special race" and attract more cars. Why are we having this discussion? Because we have different rules all across the nation concerning certain things. How in the heck is that going to help the class? 600 guys have an "accepted" set of general rules they go by whether they are NMMA or not. Most of the big races they have go by those basics. Why can't we have the same thing? Seems to work for them. Works for a lot of different classes. Yeah.......I may not like them in the end and at that point......I will decide if I what to continue racing Lightning Sprints. Just like everyone will have that option. This weight/fuel "thing" started before the Illinois group announced their deal. Their actions are the ones that finally got people THINKING out loud. Now.....we are all asking ourselves.......where this class is going? That's a good thing. Nip any problems in the bud early. Don't let it fester and end up hurting the class. I have seen plenty of that since 1986. All this typing and all the BSing and no one has yet to produce any information stating alky is that much superior to gas to warrant penalizing the alky guys with so much weight.........any weight actually.

People have been killed for what you just said.

If I understand you correctly you are bringing out a bit of dirty laundry that is best left in the past. You are saying the first Chili bowl was won by a Mini Sprint in 1986. Back then the rules were real simple run what you brung which included orient express and Hank Scott motors at ten grand a piece. Thank god these little motors work good by themselves. They are the reason for the resurgence of these things. The weight real easy to change and the fuel easy enough to change also is about the only difference in them from sea to shining sea.

The chili bowl has simple rules also if it looks like a midget let it run unless it is chain drive. I wonder if we could get the aclu to look at this?

Didn"t Sammy win that one also?

[darnall]

THe scariest thing about a heavy weight rule to me is how guys choose to get the car heavy enough. You still have a lot of cars that still use a tank/bladder set-up thats between 16/25 gallons, especially the converted midgets or the guys that were forced into adhereing to a tank/bladder rule some years ago....a guy with a 19 gallon fuel cell shows up somewhere and finds out hes 50 pounds to light so what does he do? 9 times out of 10 hes going to put an extra 8-12 gallons of unneeded fuel in that tank...it's quick, it's easy and can be done at the track....now you have 12 gallons of useless combustible fluid out on that racetrack just waiting to find a chance to catch on fire. That scares the crap out of me if one guy does it but if 25% of the field does it just imagine how much more fire fuel is rolling around out there. And the heavier that tank/bladder is the easier it gets ripped off the car in a crash.

I do not own a lightning sprint, but I occasionally drive one and I promote an open midget series that allows them to compete so I really don't have a dog in this fight. The last time I drove a LS was thanks to Mr openwheel44. He had a purpose built car that didn't have any trick or titanium stuff on it, pretty basic set-up. I weigh 225# and we still had to add about 30-40 pounds of lead to get up to the 900# minimum weight for a non wing race (925# winged) so for the life of me I can't figure out how a person could safely get many of these cars up to 975 or 1000#.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by darnall THe scariest thing about a heavy weight rule to me is how guys choose to get the car heavy enough. You still have a lot of cars that still use a tank/bladder set-up thats between 16/25 gallons, especially the converted midgets or the guys that were forced into adhereing to a tank/bladder rule some years ago....a guy with a 19 gallon fuel cell shows up somewhere and finds out hes 50 pounds to light so what does he do? 9 times out of 10 hes going to put an extra 8-12 gallons of unneeded fuel in that tank...it's quick, it's easy and can be done at the track....now you have 12 gallons of useless combustible fluid out on that racetrack just waiting to find a chance to catch on fire. That scares the crap out of me if one guy does it but if 25% of the field does it just imagine how much more fire fuel is rolling around out there. And the heavier that tank/bladder is the easier it gets ripped off the car in a crash. I do not own a lightning sprint, but I occasionally drive one and I promote an open midget series that allows them to compete so I really don't have a dog in this fight. The last time I drove a LS was thanks to Mr openwheel44. He had a purpose built car that didn't have any trick or titanium stuff on it, pretty basic set-up. I weigh 225# and we still had to add about 30-40 pounds of lead to get up to the 900# minimum weight for a non wing race (925# winged) so for the life of me I can't figure out how a person could safely get many of these cars up to 975 or 1000#.

645 w/o and 670 pounds w wing is light for a 1000 cc sprint! With fuel and ready to go we way about 775 lbs. w wing. We do use a bladder and heavy tube midget chassis. He probably does have a Bailey lightweight chassis.

We use fuel to tighten the car up 1 to 2 gals at the most. Midgets were designed to start off with up to 30 gal of fuel in the back and the tanks stay on pretty good. If he has a converted midget or fuel bladder he aint going to be too light.

!!!!The thing to worry about is does your fuel pump turn off by itself!!!!!