[staggerman]

As someone who has been around sprint cars for 30 years in the nonwinged and winged scene here is my thoughts. I think a lot of people forget how things were when there were no tire rules. Teams used to have in their trailer McCrearys, Hoosiers, and Goodyears and a wide variety of compounds of each of them. Teams would run different brands depending on the tires performance at certain tracks. I remember switching the rubber from brand to brand, back before air guns. Whew. If a guy wanted to be up front you had to be on certain tires otherwise you would be mid-pack or worse. Heck I remember the days when Hoosier had to give away tires in the late 80's and guys still wouldn't run them. I remember guys running Hoosiers through the heat then strapping on another brand in the B just to make the feature. Right now it is tough to tell if one brand is better than the other when it comes down to performance.

Do I think the spec tire program has got out of control, YES. Tire companies have raised the prices and the money goes to the tracks and sanctioning bodies, which is suppose to be put back into the car owners via point funds. If you took away the kick back to tracks and sanctioning bodies the tires would probably be $25-50 cheaper per tire. The one thing I would like to see is making teams buy their tires from the track or sanctioning bodies to eliminate teams on getting deals. As said above the guys getting deals can most likely pay for the tire bill anyway. I know of a track in WI that makes guys do that. Puts their own marks on the tires so you have to get it from them. I know this would make things difficult for guys who want to run 1 night or buy used tires.

I still think the spec tire is the way to go but there needs to be a way to cut the cost as it goes up 3-5% a year.

[ThrowbackRacingTeam]

Heavier (cheaper) cars can hook up Harder (longer lasting) tires and need less (cheaper) horsepower to do so...and mandate steel ($60 non-gas shocks). It's all been done before and of course with much higher car counts.

[hairracer44]

Okay there have been some good points made but I really would like to know as a car owner or driver paying for tires for a sprint car in Indiana. If all things being the same, Pay out and pit pass costs etc. if you have the option of running a track with an open tire rule or a track with a four corner tire rule which track would you run. Knowing what I know about cost of the tires I have to choose from I'm buying a set of American Racers and going to the track that has the open tire rule.

To be honest even knowing the quality of cars that run USAC and the Talent I am more likely this year to go run a USAC show knowing I am only forced to run a RR specific tire. Letting me save money on the other 3 corners will allow me to be able to figure a more expensive RR into the deal for a night.

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by hairracer44 Okay there have been some good points made but I really would like to know as a car owner or driver paying for tires for a sprint car in Indiana. If all things being the same, Pay out and pit pass costs etc. if you have the option of running a track with an open tire rule or a track with a four corner tire rule which track would you run. Knowing what I know about cost of the tires I have to choose from I'm buying a set of American Racers and going to the track that has the open tire rule. To be honest even knowing I the quality of cars that run USAC and the Talent I am more likely this year to go run a USAC show knowing I am only forced to run a RR specific tire. Letting me save money on the other 3 corners will allow me to be able to figure a more expensive RR into the deal for a night.

You guy's have convinced me that having a hardness rule is necessary, Yet it should always be open to a harder compound.

I've yet to see how a four corner rule helps anyone. It might help the track. But IMHO it hurts racing If someone can run for several thousand less in a season. They should be able to have that option.

[Leohr46]

Originally Posted by hairracer44 Okay there have been some good points made but I really would like to know as a car owner or driver paying for tires for a sprint car in Indiana. If all things being the same, Pay out and pit pass costs etc. if you have the option of running a track with an open tire rule or a track with a four corner tire rule which track would you run. Knowing what I know about cost of the tires I have to choose from I'm buying a set of American Racers and going to the track that has the open tire rule. To be honest even knowing the quality of cars that run USAC and the Talent I am more likely this year to go run a USAC show knowing I am only forced to run a RR specific tire. Letting me save money on the other 3 corners will allow me to be able to figure a more expensive RR into the deal for a night.

I agree.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Mattmac05 Taking your lumps in this age is a little different than it used to be. The cost to race in the past 30 years has easily increased by over 50% in maNY classes. Yet the payout for a specific special race has only increased by around $200 in 30 years. Not to mention, the challange of finding sponsors in a world where spectators are dwindling and the value of a racing sponsorship is decreasing. This financial challenge can greatly effect the amount of time a team has from going from being 'green' and logging laps, to needing to start covering expenses by finishing better to get a better payout. You see experienced, respected, talented, and hardworking racers give up the sport because it just isn't like it used to be, or it isn't worth. So, why not make it just a tad bit easier for everybody, even the experienced guy. I am not saying it has to be a tire rule, it could be any rule. But when you are dealing with dwindling car counts, 1 or 2 spec part rule can really help everyone, even those experienced guys. With current shock and suspension technolgy the amount of adjustability in sprint cars is vastly greater than it used to be. Shocks now can have 15 plus different settings per shock. Trust me, crew chiefs and drivers never run out of things to think about to try and squeeze out a little more speed. Many drivers would gladly burn 1000s of hours turning laps and testing to make up every gap in experience, but you just can't do that in a sc, and the teams you see who take every track test n tune opp, and are there from gate open to gate close, improving and getting better are not lazy. But I am done arguing about this, it is way off topic.

I don't have an issue with setting boundaries established by rules, but not in favor of one part for everybody at all times, it encourages tire cheating, I've seen it. Down here in Georgia we have a DLM series that went to "Hoosier D55" rule all 4 corners. It led to very boring single file racing. Then an enterprising fellow decided he could make good money and win lots of races if he simply modified the labels on different tires to say, "D55". They had Hoosier come in and examine the suspected tires and even they couldn't look at the tires and tell which was which. They finally just opened the tire rules back up to "ANY" Hoosier and killed his little enterprise. The racing got better too. I don't mind being limited on choices for the RR, but not just one for all conditions. A minimum hardness is a good place to start, but you must allow grooving, grinding and/or sipping too. Being able to redress the rubber can really extend a tires life.

[Mattmac05]

These are non-wing sprint cars, you will rarely ever see single file racing, yes, you may get a hooked up track that may end up single file. Second, there are no limitations on siping and groving. The doping of tires is truelly only an advantage if you go the expensive route, with a rotisserie. If u just roll it on or spray it one, you will burn that off fairly quickly on a slick track. There are very few people in Indiana who actually use a tire rotisserie (I don't know of anyone for certain), it's expensive,time consuming, and awful for your health.

Back on the topic of spec tires, I don't necessarily agree with a 4 spec tires, I agree with some variation of a rr rule, like a minimum hardness rule or a list of different options and brands, or just a spec rr tire like the Hoosier Medium. I just don't want to open it up to really soft tires (ie. Rd12's) because then you can end up in the outspending situation.

[Chris Baue]

Its ********. And just as in ********, It's all about money. It's all about the kick backs. that's why no matter who says what about it nothing will change. Your voices aren't as loud as the crys of their "empty" pockets...

If enough teams decided they weren't going to take it any more and stopped going to those tracks it would at some point start to effect their money. Only then will you see any changes.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Mattmac05 These are non-wing sprint cars, you will rarely ever see single file racing, yes, you may get a hooked up track that may end up single file. Second, there are no limitations on siping and groving. The doping of tires is truelly only an advantage if you go the expensive route, with a rotisserie. If u just roll it on or spray it one, you will burn that off fairly quickly on a slick track. There are very few people in Indiana who actually use a tire rotisserie (I don't know of anyone for certain), it's expensive,time consuming, and awful for your health. Back on the topic of spec tires, I don't necessarily agree with a 4 spec tires, I agree with some variation of a rr rule, like a minimum hardness rule or a list of different options and brands, or just a spec rr tire like the Hoosier Medium. I just don't want to open it up to really soft tires (ie. Rd12's) because then you can end up in the outspending situation.

LOL Yes, I know that we're discussing Non-wing sprints, that's what interests me. I had a rotisserie when I use to run karts, but like you said its bad for your health and I gave it up for a larger tire inventory. You can also put the chemicals inside the tire if you wish. Actually the soaking is only as expensive as you make it, like racing. I'm curious how you know how many people in Indiana treat tires... Be well and don't worry if you keep racing and asking questions you'll get better, experience means a lot.

[hairracer44]

Originally Posted by Chris Baue Its ********. And just as in ********, It's all about money. It's all about the kick backs. that's why no matter who says what about it nothing will change. Your voices aren't as loud as the crys of their "empty" pockets... If enough teams decided they weren't going to take it any more and stopped going to those tracks it would at some point start to effect their money. Only then will you see any changes.

I agree the empty pockets of the track owners and sanctioning bodies cry loudly and I appreciate that we as racers. I agree that if enough racers would stay home and not support the tracks and bodies with unrealistic tire rules that only help them and the manufacturers our voices will be heard.

I personally as a car owner and driver made the decision last year to not run any track or sanctioning body that had a 4 corner tire rule. I will do the same this year as much as I like Bloomington, Kokomo and Putnamville I still plan to stick to my guns and not run those track unless it is with a group that has no tire rule or a RR only rule. I hear many racers and car owners complaining about the rule but they still got and race with the rule. To me it is a principle and I will support Paragon, BOSS and USAC and any other track or group with and open tire rule and as much as I don't like the RR rule I feel I can at least deal financially with that rule.

I was hoping to see some of the other owner I hear complain respond and state that they would or wouldn't run a track or group with the 4 tire rule and why as well as from those that support the rule and why. I still invite other that have not responded to this thread to respond I think all owners and drivers opinion are important to the sport and will help make it better and last longer.

and Yes I am responding to my thread to try and keep it towards the top because I think this is an important topic as I feel tires and tire rules are part of what hurt if not Killed Pavement Midget and Sprint car racing and I don't want to see the same happen to local Dirt Sprint car racing.