Winning by Judgement

Tim Clauson · 3/30/09, 9:36 PM

Tim, I have to wonder what was your reaction when Brian was taken out of a transfer spot at Perris in the Midget and the driver who dumped him, got the transfer spot? I was appalled a call was not made in that situation.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I was pissed but never in a million years would I of expected a "call" to be made.

After the race Bryan and the other driver talked about what happened and worked it out and believe it or not it was put behind us. The driver apologized and I honestly believe his intent was not to "crash" us as he was battling for the transfer spot with another car as well But if the norm is for these drivers to start looking for the officials to "bail" them out or justify their driving there will be a bigger harm to the sport. Go watch a quarter midget race for an afternoon and you will see what I am talking about, Johnny bumps jimmy, jimmy hits the switch and then they argue for an hour on who gets the call.

Another point, I watch a lot of racing and I just don't see the "kids" crashing all these guys that are referred to over and over again on these pages. In fact I bet if someone wanted to do a little research a "kids" slider gone wrong could be countered with a veterans slider gone wrong *** for tat.

Tim Clauson

JakeCroxton · 3/30/09, 9:42 PM

Speaking from a race official's standpoint, there are rules designed to discourage BLASTING somebody. Please note the difference between a slidejob and BLASTING somebody. There really is a difference. And any knowledgeable person should recognize and admit this difference. While they are similar tactics, crashing someone to win a race is dishonorable and cannot be tolerated if a racetrack / organization wished to keep good competition happening on a regular basis. Good hard racing with the occasional, skillfully executed slide-job is what people come to see.

From the perch, there's going to be somebody in the official's face on either end. If no call is made, the puntee is wondering why such a horsesh** maneuver has gone unpenalized. If the rough-driving call is made, the punter is telling you how "that was just racing" and how it was a horsesh** call. Half the fans usually like it. Half the fans usually don't. And it is the topic of conversation until the next such maneuver next week.

As long as the rules themselves are designed so that the same call can be made EVERY TIME, then I have no problem being the guy to make that call. Open wheeled racing is easy to call - if the car stalls, it needs pushed - throw the yellow and send the stalled car to the tail. If Driver X takes Driver Y to the wall and they both are able to make it back to start/finish - that's a borderline deal. If Driver Y is sitting on the infield after the contact, a penalty is probably warranted. If both cars make it back and they have both made contact with each other at least once, you either penalize nobody and let it happen or you penalize both and put them both at the end of the lead lap. If Driver X plants Driver Y in the third row of the Chili Bowl arena or the Mini Magic Mile, a penalty is warranted. How severe? I use the higher position of "behind who you punted" (assuming they are able to continue) or the end of the lead lap.

I've worked at places in Stock Car country that the driver-base thinks you ought to get your spot back if you get punted. This is a great way to ruin your racetrack / series. Whenever you're awarding people positions in this manner, the favoritism card is sure to follow.

I don't know what exactly happened at DuQuoin and I don't have the right answer here, necessarily. This is at least my thought process for calling a race. Maybe there are other officials that read this board that could chime in as well.

3/30/09, 9:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dirt midget

Brad Loyet shows up to win races. Period!! And by all means, if Brad Loyet's dad worked his butt off and now has some money to provide a good life for his family, kudos to him! I think it is AWESOME to see how close the Loyet family is and how they all support each other! Some of you people get too personal and want to make rediculous comments about people! Are some of you people mad that Joe Loyet has money and has chosen to get into the sport of auto racing? We go from talking about a slide job someone did to making personal (maybe jealous?) comments about a person and his dad! ?????

I am by no means making personal attacks. i think its great that people bring money to racing. i just don't think that he needs to drive like money is no object.

ClaytonYeley · 3/30/09, 9:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75crew

Yes, that is the risk of auto racing but is it necessary to end one guy's season for a couple grand that you don't need?

I think anyone who is running second and saw a opportunity open up would take that risk. Its human competitiveness that says go for it. Is it necessary? Well that's not for me to decide its a drivers split second decision. + people are getting confused i think, Loyet did NOT run through Kuhn attempting to take him out (they hit RR to LF). Did Loyet misjudge what was going to happen, well yes but so has everyone who has grasped the wheel of a car.

3/30/09, 9:54 PM

More profound words have never been spoken or written on the subject at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by psullivan

The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really.
The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way.

riskybrisky5 · 3/30/09, 10:11 PM

Me personally I am against judgement calls in short track racing. I think you are opening up a can of worms with those kind of calls. After every race someone will be wanting someone penalized. What I do want is sanctioning bodies and local tracks to pay attention to the races. Have a board of qualified drivers and owners to watch the races. If they see drivers making really stupid moves and driving way over there heads, then talk to them and put them on probation. If this does not fix the situation then exclude them from competing for two events. When they come back if they are still on probation. I think this could really help our sport. Why I do not like judgement calls is like what I seen happen at Bloomington last summer. They penalized Shane Cottle for rough driving when if fact he did nothing wrong. The driver he was trying to pass was the car out of control driving over his head and Shane got into him spinning that car on around. Shane did nothing wrong but got penalized.

What I really liked is the old days when I was a kid then later when I started racing. The drivers took care of there own business. I knew when I rolled on the track I better respect my fellow racer or I was going to pay the price when I came in the pits if I didn't. I Know it will never come back to this in today's world of racing. But if it did come back you would see some drivers driving differently. Racing is never going to be perfect we just have to do the best with what we have. That is why I think that organizations and local tracks should look into having qualified boards to deal with the problem.

riskybrisky5 · 3/30/09, 10:15 PM

"The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really.
The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way. " Quote from Pat Sullivan

Hewitt did this when he was driving for us. He got into Rick Unger while passing him for the lead. Jack pulled over and let Rick back by and raced him clean for the win.

Pine · 3/30/09, 10:20 PM

With all due respect, what are we going to have, referee's and umpires. The umps' call the strikes and the ref throw's the penalty flag. Do they stop the race right there or penalize at the end of the race. Can we have an owner challenge, do we use penalty box' or timeouts. Is instant replay going to be used or are the officials the see all end all. Just what we need, NASCAR on dirt:thumbsdown:.

A little Jack Hewitt justice goes a LONG way.....:icon_smile_blackeye

mrmoose · 3/30/09, 10:25 PM

rules are rules and it dont matter if its lap 1 or 30,rough driving is to be treated the same every time.
rough drive someone and go to the back,do it more than once and the official should trailer you.
you have rules and officials to use them,its kinda like laws without cops who would enforce the rules.
we dont always like them but as long as they are consisitent it helps us all know the guidelines.

Charles Nungester · 3/30/09, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by psullivan

The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really.
The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way.

That gets my sportsmanship post of the year award

3/30/09, 9:36 PM	#31 Re: Winning by Judgement
Tim Clauson Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 510	Tim, I have to wonder what was your reaction when Brian was taken out of a transfer spot at Perris in the Midget and the driver who dumped him, got the transfer spot? I was appalled a call was not made in that situation.[/QUOTE] Honestly, I was pissed but never in a million years would I of expected a "call" to be made. After the race Bryan and the other driver talked about what happened and worked it out and believe it or not it was put behind us. The driver apologized and I honestly believe his intent was not to "crash" us as he was battling for the transfer spot with another car as well But if the norm is for these drivers to start looking for the officials to "bail" them out or justify their driving there will be a bigger harm to the sport. Go watch a quarter midget race for an afternoon and you will see what I am talking about, Johnny bumps jimmy, jimmy hits the switch and then they argue for an hour on who gets the call. Another point, I watch a lot of racing and I just don't see the "kids" crashing all these guys that are referred to over and over again on these pages. In fact I bet if someone wanted to do a little research a "kids" slider gone wrong could be countered with a veterans slider gone wrong *** for tat. Tim Clauson

3/30/09, 9:42 PM	#32 Re: Winning by Judgement
JakeCroxton Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 81	Speaking from a race official's standpoint, there are rules designed to discourage BLASTING somebody. Please note the difference between a slidejob and BLASTING somebody. There really is a difference. And any knowledgeable person should recognize and admit this difference. While they are similar tactics, crashing someone to win a race is dishonorable and cannot be tolerated if a racetrack / organization wished to keep good competition happening on a regular basis. Good hard racing with the occasional, skillfully executed slide-job is what people come to see. From the perch, there's going to be somebody in the official's face on either end. If no call is made, the puntee is wondering why such a horsesh maneuver has gone unpenalized. If the rough-driving call is made, the punter is telling you how "that was just racing" and how it was a horsesh call. Half the fans usually like it. Half the fans usually don't. And it is the topic of conversation until the next such maneuver next week. As long as the rules themselves are designed so that the same call can be made EVERY TIME, then I have no problem being the guy to make that call. Open wheeled racing is easy to call - if the car stalls, it needs pushed - throw the yellow and send the stalled car to the tail. If Driver X takes Driver Y to the wall and they both are able to make it back to start/finish - that's a borderline deal. If Driver Y is sitting on the infield after the contact, a penalty is probably warranted. If both cars make it back and they have both made contact with each other at least once, you either penalize nobody and let it happen or you penalize both and put them both at the end of the lead lap. If Driver X plants Driver Y in the third row of the Chili Bowl arena or the Mini Magic Mile, a penalty is warranted. How severe? I use the higher position of "behind who you punted" (assuming they are able to continue) or the end of the lead lap. I've worked at places in Stock Car country that the driver-base thinks you ought to get your spot back if you get punted. This is a great way to ruin your racetrack / series. Whenever you're awarding people positions in this manner, the favoritism card is sure to follow. I don't know what exactly happened at DuQuoin and I don't have the right answer here, necessarily. This is at least my thought process for calling a race. Maybe there are other officials that read this board that could chime in as well.

3/30/09, 10:11 PM	#36 Re: Winning by Judgement
riskybrisky5 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 284	Me personally I am against judgement calls in short track racing. I think you are opening up a can of worms with those kind of calls. After every race someone will be wanting someone penalized. What I do want is sanctioning bodies and local tracks to pay attention to the races. Have a board of qualified drivers and owners to watch the races. If they see drivers making really stupid moves and driving way over there heads, then talk to them and put them on probation. If this does not fix the situation then exclude them from competing for two events. When they come back if they are still on probation. I think this could really help our sport. Why I do not like judgement calls is like what I seen happen at Bloomington last summer. They penalized Shane Cottle for rough driving when if fact he did nothing wrong. The driver he was trying to pass was the car out of control driving over his head and Shane got into him spinning that car on around. Shane did nothing wrong but got penalized. What I really liked is the old days when I was a kid then later when I started racing. The drivers took care of there own business. I knew when I rolled on the track I better respect my fellow racer or I was going to pay the price when I came in the pits if I didn't. I Know it will never come back to this in today's world of racing. But if it did come back you would see some drivers driving differently. Racing is never going to be perfect we just have to do the best with what we have. That is why I think that organizations and local tracks should look into having qualified boards to deal with the problem.

3/30/09, 10:15 PM	#37 Re: Winning by Judgement
riskybrisky5 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 284	"The great Pat O'Connor was passing Eddie Sachs at Winchester and made contact as he did - he slowed and motioned Eddie to go around him - which he did and Sachs won the race. In victory lane Eddie said "I hope you all saw what Pat did". Which is why Pat was as revered as he was by fans and peers alike, and why HARF's Pat O'Connor award is in so many ways the most important award bestowed on a driver. Looks what happens in NASCAR now days - there has been a dramatic drop in this level of civility and responsibility. in it is often excused as the "move he had to make" Had to? Really. The ends justifies the means mentality (which has manifested itself at nearly every phase of the sport) is simply wrong, and when officials look the other way they aid and abet this culture. How it gets handled can take many forms - but it needs to be handled in some way. " Quote from Pat Sullivan Hewitt did this when he was driving for us. He got into Rick Unger while passing him for the lead. Jack pulled over and let Rick back by and raced him clean for the win.

3/30/09, 10:20 PM	#38 Re: Winning by Judgement
Pine Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1,011	With all due respect, what are we going to have, referee's and umpires. The umps' call the strikes and the ref throw's the penalty flag. Do they stop the race right there or penalize at the end of the race. Can we have an owner challenge, do we use penalty box' or timeouts. Is instant replay going to be used or are the officials the see all end all. Just what we need, NASCAR on dirt:thumbsdown:. A little Jack Hewitt justice goes a LONG way.....:icon_smile_blackeye

3/30/09, 10:25 PM	#39 Re: Winning by Judgement
mrmoose Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 68	rules are rules and it dont matter if its lap 1 or 30,rough driving is to be treated the same every time. rough drive someone and go to the back,do it more than once and the official should trailer you. you have rules and officials to use them,its kinda like laws without cops who would enforce the rules. we dont always like them but as long as they are consisitent it helps us all know the guidelines.