[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by opnwhlmnd USCS Southern Thunder Tour Runs Georgia, Alabama, North/South Carolina and northern Florida quite a bit. It's a 360 winged deal with ASCS rules.

Yes they do, thank you.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Jcpelly I will tell you one thing, the 305 is not more powerful than the Ct525. I am the one that has been doing the testing of the Ct525 for the UMSS up here in Minnesota. The Evolution 525 by Pace Performance has 580HP and really high torque that I can't remember right now. Last year I only ran it in the open form with the wing against the ASCS 360s and at the last race of the year the lap times of a Ct525 were very close to the ASCS motors that have a lot more HP and double the cost. The beauty of this motor is that with no modifications other than a different spacer under the carb it will be restricted down to the 305 motor levels and is now running in the 305 class at Knoxville in that configuration. This year we will be running this motor in the same car in the wing and non wing UMSS sprint series. For it to get down to the level of the SBC 360 motors of the UMSS non wing series we will be running a different MSD box and a rev limiter but no change in the spacer, so the only modification between running both classes will to be to swap the box and throw on the non wing front axle. The goal is to get it down to just under 400hp. If I want I will be able to run this motor in the non wing UMSS, 305 Knoxville, Winged UMSS, non wing HRA, and even USAC or WAR if I wanted to travel. 80 shows before you even have to think about a freshen and then a trade in program from Pace. I think if I were setting up a new non wing budget series I would either go with one of the following options - 305 racesaver, 604 crate, or the Ct525 with the Knoxville spacer. 604 crate is going to be the least expensive, followed by the Racesaver, and then the 525 when you are talking new motors. Other considerations would be if you want the option to use the motor in winged divisions and different classes where the 305 and 525 are going to have more options there. As far as starters, don't do it as it will cause nothing but headaches for the teams. Up here every team is required to have or to arrange a 4 wheeler to start them. 500cc and above wheelers can start all these.

I know your right, the CT525 is more powerful on the dyno than the RS305, but from an observation POV the 305 cars seem to accelerate better and cost about a 1/3 to 1/2 as much as the Sprint CT525 from Pace. Requiring 4 wheelers sounds much more expensive than a starter/battery. The 604 is a possibility, $7200 sprint ready from Pace I think, but the CT525 even though I think its great, is more than I could sell to these people I'm sure. I get it I'm tampering with tradition, but I don't see any other way. All you guys are from sprint occupied territory, I live in a foreign country with no infrastructure and speaking a different language. I think the RS305 is gonna hold the most promise and allow for the most opportunity. The Elite Non-wing RS305 guys are 3-4 states away in TX and the Winged Racesaver guys are in the Carolinas(mainly NC), but we'll just have to see. Anybody ever tried putting injection on a GM602?


From Pace Performance:
CT525 $15950 race ready w/controller
GM602 $7850 race ready w/o headers.
GM604 $7200 race ready w/o carb or headers.

[Jcpelly]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights Hey I get it, 410 is the e-ching. I don't disagree. Whats funny is you mentioned my plan as, "dumbing down" the sprint makes it an "Emod", that's funny because we don't have those either... Your assertion that I'm attempting to dumb down sprints is accurate, I want it to be as "plug n play" as possible, I want to erase any fears, but maintain the core excitement I've discovered in non-wing sprints. I'm a 30 year DLM convert attempting to convert my countrymen. If we are honest, sprints were not always 410 fire breathing monsters, they became that. A typical saturday night at the races in my area on the GA/SC border is this: 1 class of stk 4 cylinders, 1 class of V8 street stock and 3 classes of Dirt Late Models(GM602 Sportsman, GM604 Crates & Steel Head 358 Limited Late). Supers on a weekly basis died out 10+ years ago. Racing here is in decline, people don't go to watch as much as they did, the economy has never really recovered since 2008. I've started listening to a lot of sprint car podcasts like, JackSlash, WFOpenwheel and Dirt Nation to try and learn as much as I can. Funny thing is on every podcast they mention how important it is to convert the DLM/Modified crowd to sprints, well your talking to one, but down here we are as dedicated to Dirt Late Model as the clay is hard in July. I know these people, I know what confuses and scares them from looking into sprint cars and I'm doing the best i can to get them to dip a toe in the pool. I know if I can ever get it started and show people what I've seen, it'll catch like fire, but telling them they need to build 410 sprints as a place to start would be absurd. You guys have been in this stuff for decades, its the norm, but its alien technology looking in from the outside. I see now why those before me gave up trying to get sprints to work down here.

It can be done. The UMSS Traditional Sprint Series started with an exhibition year in 2011 with 4 of us building cars. I had never even sat in a sprint car prior to buying one and took me forever to figure out where the springs and panhard bar was on that thing . 2012 I think we had 7 cars. The history is explained on the website at www.umsprints.com. In 2016 we had full fields almost every race and the racing got much more competitive every year. I'm guessing the last time non wing sprint cars ran in this area regularly was 40+ years ago. It has caught on exponentially with increasing car counts and interest. This is also big modified territory in what used to be a dominant late model area. We still hear the complaints of no starters but week after week this class puts on the best racing of all the classes. Don't thing limited non wing sprints can't put on good races go check out some of the videos on the website.

[motorhead748]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights Hey I get it, 410 is the e-ching. I don't disagree. Whats funny is you mentioned my plan as, "dumbing down" the sprint makes it an "Emod", that's funny because we don't have those either... Your assertion that I'm attempting to dumb down sprints is accurate, I want it to be as "plug n play" as possible, I want to erase any fears, but maintain the core excitement I've discovered in non-wing sprints. I'm a 30 year DLM convert attempting to convert my countrymen. If we are honest, sprints were not always 410 fire breathing monsters, they became that. A typical saturday night at the races in my area on the GA/SC border is this: 1 class of stk 4 cylinders, 1 class of V8 street stock and 3 classes of Dirt Late Models(GM602 Sportsman, GM604 Crates & Steel Head 358 Limited Late). Supers on a weekly basis died out 10+ years ago. Racing here is in decline, people don't go to watch as much as they did, the economy has never really recovered since 2008. I've started listening to a lot of sprint car podcasts like, JackSlash, WFOpenwheel and Dirt Nation to try and learn as much as I can. Funny thing is on every podcast they mention how important it is to convert the DLM/Modified crowd to sprints, well your talking to one, but down here we are as dedicated to Dirt Late Model as the clay is hard in July. I know these people, I know what confuses and scares them from looking into sprint cars and I'm doing the best i can to get them to dip a toe in the pool. I know if I can ever get it started and show people what I've seen, it'll catch like fire, but telling them they need to build 410 sprints as a place to start would be absurd. You guys have been in this stuff for decades, its the norm, but its alien technology looking in from the outside. I see now why those before me gave up trying to get sprints to work down here.

I didn't say turn them into Emods, I said an Emod (or something comparable) would've faster...
And true they weren't always 410's but they were always the fastest at the track...
Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your enthusiasm with racing no matter what the class, I was just never one to sugar coat things

[Rhody]

the problem with the self starting cars is the expense and the weight. When I first got into sprints there was talk of putting starters in them, if they had passed that rule I would probably have sold out and gone 600 racing.

[TQ29m]

My big concern with starters is not the weight, as much as it is with the damage it can cause, in order to make it work, you have to be able to retard the ignition, that you need to have to get the performance out of the engine, otherwise you sit there with the starter on the track, and maybe a very expensive part of the engine attached to it, you take a high compression racing engine with quite a bit of advance cranked in to begin with, then add the cylinders having an above average amount of fuel in them, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Jmho! Bob

[oldfan49]

I live in fender country until the last couple of years when sprints started making a comeback. Sprint teams have a means to start the cars so that really isn't an issue before the race or during reds. On spins the local wreckers and track vehicles will be able to handle it if you just give them a little heads up on push starting. I am sure any of the group that pushes in Indiana will be willing to help you out there.

[motorhead748]

So how much are you planning to spend on this experiment? That is building 2 cars, getting them to the track etc......

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by motorhead748 I didn't say turn them into Emods, I said an Emod (or something comparable) would've faster... And true they weren't always 410's but they were always the fastest at the track... Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your enthusiasm with racing no matter what the class, I was just never one to sugar coat things

I appreciate all your input and I apologize if our wires got crossed. Actually from a power to weight ratio of an RS305 sprint vs our Limited Lates, they may still be the fastest thing on the track, down here. I have no idea what an E-mod is, LOL.

Originally Posted by Jcpelly It can be done. The UMSS Traditional Sprint Series started with an exhibition year in 2011 with 4 of us building cars. I had never even sat in a sprint car prior to buying one and took me forever to figure out where the springs and panhard bar was on that thing . 2012 I think we had 7 cars. The history is explained on the website at www.umsprints.com. In 2016 we had full fields almost every race and the racing got much more competitive every year. I'm guessing the last time non wing sprint cars ran in this area regularly was 40+ years ago. It has caught on exponentially with increasing car counts and interest. This is also big modified territory in what used to be a dominant late model area. We still hear the complaints of no starters but week after week this class puts on the best racing of all the classes. Don't thing limited non wing sprints can't put on good races go check out some of the videos on the website.

Your story is encouraging and worth considering and like I said I'm gathering info, looking at what works and what doesn't. They introduced the CT525 in late models down here about 5 or 6 years ago, gave it a weight break and a taller spoiler and in the right conditions(Dry Slick) with an above average driver(Ronnie Johnson) it was wining some(something like 5 or 6) races against the open comp supers. Several series adopted rules to allow it and the future looked bright and the prospect of reviving weekly Super Late model seemed possible... Within 1 year the Open Comp drivers had lobbied hard enough that ALL the series rolled back the rules and put the CT525 on even par with open comp engines, same weight, same spoiler, just has a 350HP deficit to Open Comp.

Next it looked like maybe Limited Late would be the home for the CT525, but no, fears of traction control hidden in the controller and absurd rumors of whiz kids with lap tops hacking the box and telling the engine exactly how much power to make resulted in further rules removing the coil packs/controller and adding #100 of weight to the front of the car as well as a 100HP deficit in power to the steel head cars... So now if you want to race a CT525 and not get run out of town on a rail you have to travel with either Nesmith or FAST series.

The CT525 is a great engine and I myself don't have irrational fears of traction control and Millennial's using apps on smart phones to adjust the HP to whatever number they want, but some less sophisticated folks do, sadly. The reason we have a 602 Sportsman Late model class is because so many racers became convinced that "Blue Printing" a 604 gave it 85-100HP more than the out of the box ones, even with a prominent engine builder dynoing every single one to show them. Didn't matter, they wanted blue printing(rebuilding to spec) outlawed, but when they couldn't get that, they split and started a 602 only class with no rebuilding allowed, ever. I'm so frustrated I have trouble mustering the enthusiasm to even go most weeks... Then I discovered Non-Wing sprints on the Dirty 30 show and I was reinvigorated. I don't know what the end solution will be.

Originally Posted by Rhody the problem with the self starting cars is the expense and the weight. When I first got into sprints there was talk of putting starters in them, if they had passed that rule I would probably have sold out and gone 600 racing.

Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4

Originally Posted by TQ29m My big concern with starters is not the weight, as much as it is with the damage it can cause, in order to make it work, you have to be able to retard the ignition, that you need to have to get the performance out of the engine, otherwise you sit there with the starter on the track, and maybe a very expensive part of the engine attached to it, you take a high compression racing engine with quite a bit of advance cranked in to begin with, then add the cylinders having an above average amount of fuel in them, it's a disaster waiting to happen. Jmho! Bob

Is an RS305 that high on compression? When I first got started working on DLM's back in 86' we used mags, w/starters without issue...
Check out these videos, they all have starters, transmissions and batteries.
North East Wingless Sprints
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b4XwWedJXQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyu18WQruP4

Originally Posted by oldfan49 I live in fender country until the last couple of years when sprints started making a comeback. Sprint teams have a means to start the cars so that really isn't an issue before the race or during reds. On spins the local wreckers and track vehicles will be able to handle it if you just give them a little heads up on push starting. I am sure any of the group that pushes in Indiana will be willing to help you out there.

I'm in Georgia, No Sprints. I'm planning to be patient zero.

Originally Posted by motorhead748 So how much are you planning to spend on this experiment? That is building 2 cars, getting them to the track etc......

Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

[motorhead748]

Why? A budget as of yet has not been established, that's why I'm asking so many questions. Are you of the opinion I shouldn't bother?

No, not at all. I'd say go for it if that's what you want. But I will add that I owned, drove and paid about 98% of the bills on my own car for 20 years. I was able to win some races & track championships on a budget that most would consider not enough to race hobby stocks. So I am acutely aware of the expense involved. It's just hard for me to fathom putting 2 cars together and let people play in them in hopes it will spur some interest, all while knowing that if I did get a track interested the purse is more than likely going to be minimal.