[Jonr]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner For a relative success story in Midgets look to the Badgers. Why?: A stabilized engine specification of reasonable cost.

I know that I was the guy that asked the question about car counts, but I hate this solution. I strongly agree that we need to have a stabilized spec engine class for midgets. I would also argue that it needs to be a common rule set across the nation so we dont become like the modifieds and every track has 4 classes of modifieds each with a unique rule class that limits them to three tracks. I could even see a track hosting a D2 event for everyone in the nation like the IMCA nationals in Boone.

However, I do not believe that all midgets in the country have to be the same. I do not have issues with a national midget costing more than a D2/Badger midget. I do not have issues that the local yocal can not compete against the KKM's of the world.

At some point, USAC/Xtreme/POWRi may come to a cross roads like Badger did a decade ago and have to make a dramatic shift to save the sport, but at this point, I don't think we are there.

[jdull99]

Originally Posted by Vookie NO! March 15 DuQuoin - 39 cars March 16 DuQuoin - 40 cars April 5 US 36 - 23 cars April 6 Sweet Springs - 28 cars April 12 Farmer City - 25 cars April 13 Farmer City - 26 cars https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/

Good info. I was thinking of last season though; and not "off-season" events (like indoor shows that can attract more cars). I will research later on that. I am certain the Xtreme car count topic has come up on this forum before...maybe it was Hoseheads tho...

[Frank Reiner]

This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

Think ARDC was around longer. Also not running this year.

[jdull99]

Originally Posted by jdull99 Good info. I was thinking of last season though; and not "off-season" events (like indoor shows that can attract more cars). I will research later on that. I am certain the Xtreme car count topic has come up on this forum before...maybe it was Hoseheads tho...

I was wrong...I did a quick look, and found a few with 14/15 cars, but looks like all the rest had more full fields. That is good. & I shouldn't have trusted what I read on one of these forums last year! (someone said they were lower counts...my fault for not checking into it more though...)

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

https://xtremeoutlawseries.com/resul...series=midgets

[Jonr]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner This subject comes close to home; in northern California the BCRA operated a Midget schedule successfully since 1939. The rules were essentially those of USAC. Eight years ago the pavement show ended; promoters were somewhat less than thrilled with 5 cars. The dirt operation, such as it is, continues only in conjunction with USAC Western States Midgets. For many participants, be they Owners or Owner/Drivers, the lack of willingness to entertain some method of equalizing performance over the range of engines now in use put 80% of the cars in the trailer and locked the door. A year ago an attempt to revive some interest brought only shrugs. It is indeed true "You don't know what you've got until it's gone."

I spent the summer of 2008 in Southern Wisconsin and fell in love with Angell Park and Badger midgets. That was around the time that Badger started talking seriously about something having to change. When the USAC guys were in town, the car counts were great. When it was only a Badger show the car counts really started to suffer. I only stayed in Wisconsin for one year, but have followed them since.

If I remember correctly, there was a year or two when there were two midget groups in Wisconsin. Badger decided to go to with the new "restricted" engine and the other group still wanted to run the national motor. (need someone to fact check me here)

This is also around the time that Angell Park went from a midget only track to hosting other events.

Sometimes change has to happen and there is no choice, and at some point National midgets may have to go to a different engine package. I just don't think that day is now.

P.S. pretty excited to drive down to Humboldt after work to see Xtreme in action tonight.

[jdull99]

Originally Posted by Jonr I spent the summer of 2008 in Southern Wisconsin and fell in love with Angell Park and Badger midgets. That was around the time that Badger started talking seriously about something having to change. When the USAC guys were in town, the car counts were great. When it was only a Badger show the car counts really started to suffer. I only stayed in Wisconsin for one year, but have followed them since. If I remember correctly, there was a year or two when there were two midget groups in Wisconsin. Badger decided to go to with the new "restricted" engine and the other group still wanted to run the national motor. (need someone to fact check me here) This is also around the time that Angell Park went from a midget only track to hosting other events. Sometimes change has to happen and there is no choice, and at some point National midgets may have to go to a different engine package. I just don't think that day is now. P.S. pretty excited to drive down to Humboldt after work to see Xtreme in action tonight.

The two groups of "National" midgets - in WI area - was in 2010 (the one called "APSARA" only lasted 3 races - we were at all of them. Won a trophy dash and took 2nd, to Davey Ray, in the last feature...the car count that day was comparable to the last POWRi race...lol). The rules were the same, for both versions of "national midgets" (as far as I recall). Bmara didn't start making any efforts to entertain any new major rules until 2015 (Christopher Bell was the 2014 champ, if that tells you anything...lol). 2015 was a mix (restricted national engines, and the new 2.4s). 2016, and on, was all 2.4L only, and no more "National" engines were allowed (restricted or not). I'd like to think most people would agree it has gone well for them. I enjoyed watching both the Badger show and the USAC race at APS last Labor Day (that was the only event I made it to last season). Both groups of cars are plenty fast.

Now there was/is a 2nd club midget club out of Joliet/Grundy area; that Laverne Spencer started; the restricted OEM engine type / cost effective tire deal back in late 80s/early 90s. It was called the Sportsmen midgets then IRS, now Midwest Mayhem Midgets. Most of the time it was pavement based, but around those years (mid-2000s thru I'll just say mid to late 2010s, they ran dirt, including APS - the same nights Badger did. Many "National midget" people didn't have much to do with them - we ran both, as often as we could. We won the IRS feature in 07 at APS. Kurt Mayhew won many of those races around that time, at APS and the such).

Disclaimer; to dispel the keyboard warriors/clarification: The only time Badger had anything to do with restricted engines was that 2015 year. And everyone should know their 2.4L rules are different than other clubs (If I don't say it, someone else will...lol). But I think everyone (yes, including me) can agree it has worked for them.

[RMR3]

I want to point out a couple things here.

The Badger Midgets are nowhere close to D2. If anything they are more like USAC & Xtreme. The only difference between a Honda running in USAC and Badger is that Badger is a max cubic inch limit of 148.82 (vs USAC at 154cid) and no head porting (USAC wide open head porting.) That's it. Otherwise they are the same.

The only thing similar between D2 and Badger is they both require a production based platform. I am not a fan of D2 because they write rules to "restrict" virtually every aspect of the engine, but then can't enforce the majority of the rules they write. There is a camshaft supplier who openly admits to selling cheater cams to a large number of D2 racers. Writing rules that cannot be enforced only hurts the honest racer.

[TQ29m]

I have to agree with the rules that can't or won't be enforced, makes for even more cheating I once bought a pavement midget out of Ca, just to get the basics to build an inexpensive D2 for Dirt, than was told I couldn't run the engine that I had bought, but no explanation as to why, could have been the wrong color, but no reasons were given, I sold what I didn't need, but still have the engine, and parts to build what I wanted to begin, but with no more interest than was provided, I now have grown too old to want to do that, any more

[Jonr]

Originally Posted by jdull99 The two groups of "National" midgets - in WI area - was in 2010 (the one called "APSARA" only lasted 3 races - we were at all of them. Won a trophy dash and took 2nd, to Davey Ray, in the last feature...the car count that day was comparable to the last POWRi race...lol). The rules were the same, for both versions of "national midgets" (as far as I recall). Bmara didn't start making any efforts to entertain any new major rules until 2015 (Christopher Bell was the 2014 champ, if that tells you anything...lol). 2015 was a mix (restricted national engines, and the new 2.4s). 2016, and on, was all 2.4L only, and no more "National" engines were allowed (restricted or not). I'd like to think most people would agree it has gone well for them. I enjoyed watching both the Badger show and the USAC race at APS last Labor Day (that was the only event I made it to last season). Both groups of cars are plenty fast. Now there was/is a 2nd club midget club out of Joliet/Grundy area; that Laverne Spencer started; the restricted OEM engine type / cost effective tire deal back in late 80s/early 90s. It was called the Sportsmen midgets then IRS, now Midwest Mayhem Midgets. Most of the time it was pavement based, but around those years (mid-2000s thru I'll just say mid to late 2010s, they ran dirt, including APS - the same nights Badger did. Many "National midget" people didn't have much to do with them - we ran both, as often as we could. We won the IRS feature in 07 at APS. Kurt Mayhew won many of those races around that time, at APS and the such). Disclaimer; to dispel the keyboard warriors/clarification: The only time Badger had anything to do with restricted engines was that 2015 year. And everyone should know their 2.4L rules are different than other clubs (If I don't say it, someone else will...lol). But I think everyone (yes, including me) can agree it has worked for them.

Thanks for the fact check.

When C Bell won the Badger championship, wasn't that the year that Kenny Brown was the promoter at Angell Park and had a lot of co Sanctioned races with POWRi?