[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by DAD https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/alb...pictureid=3086 Now here is an inexpensive motor for D2 Midget racing

DAD that little power plant required a bank loan & 3 cosigners to buy when that ad came out hahaaa!!! @ the risk of being called a old coot again, I skimmed the Badger rules & they are good , I would open it up to allowing porting the head , any injection manifold for EFI , on the stock blockers & with a weight break they could be made competitive with current USAC/POWRI National Midgets and provide a power plant at the local level many could afford. I still think you need just one healthy midget division, write the rules any way you want. The team Kunz types are going to win most of the big races. Your never going to eliminate that. What has mostly been eliminated is most getting in the game. That needs to change for the health of Open Wheel Racing. The worst race team can beat the best on any given day. and that is a important attraction that is mostly missing, cuz they have to be able to get in the game to do it !!!!

[DAD]

Ok Roy

Checking the inflation calculator $1100.00 in 1952 was like $10,000.00 today so really not too bad of a deal. Now have have you checked the price on one of these today. Closer to a new Esslinger price.

Keep Midgets on Midget tracks and the MONEY advantage evaporates.

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by DAD Ok Roy Checking the inflation calculator $1100.00 in 1952 was like $10,000.00 today so really not too bad of a deal. Now have have you checked the price on one of these today. Closer to a new Esslinger price. Keep Midgets on Midget tracks and the MONEY advantage evaporates.

That is even before my time, IIRC remember Bobby Meeks telling the story of how he & Vic Sr kept pouring nitro in the Edelbrock v8-60 Midget & Roger Ward kickin the crap outta the Offys @ Gilmore & Orange Show in SoCal about 1950. It's all relative & I bet Vic Sr engine cost much less than a Offy. < ( which was a great engine) What is disappointing to me is innovation, smarts , hard work and balls seem to get legislated out , and fairness, you can only play on our playground if you conform ,you cant touch this or do that, don't say sheet even if you have a mouthful seems to pervade not only racing , but every other aspect of life !!!

Over regulating and dictating every aspect of anything is a path to failure 98.7% of the time...

[DAD]

Agreed Roy

Age tends to affect your perspective. Rules tend to cut down on competitiveness. There are some modern 4 valve V6 Motors that can produce the power of a national midget motor and then some. BUT they aren't allowed to play. Some of these little stock Turbo 4 cyl Motors can also match numbers with the TRO's. We have a guy up at Montpelier that is using a minimal rule rule book and he seems to be holding his own. Some people talk about replacing rules for us to live by when in fact they should just be talking about repealing them>>Period. Competition seems always to be the best cure for what ails us.

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert DAD that little power plant required a bank loan & 3 cosigners to buy when that ad came out hahaaa!!! @ the risk of being called a old coot again, I skimmed the Badger rules & they are good , I would open it up to allowing porting the head , any injection manifold for EFI , on the stock blockers & with a weight break they could be made competitive with current USAC/POWRI National Midgets and provide a power plant at the local level many could afford. I still think you need just one healthy midget division, write the rules any way you want. The team Kunz types are going to win most of the big races. Your never going to eliminate that. What has mostly been eliminated is most getting in the game. That needs to change for the health of Open Wheel Racing. The worst race team can beat the best on any given day. and that is a important attraction that is mostly missing, cuz they have to be able to get in the game to do it !!!!

Roy, in Badger you are allowed to run any injection manifold for EFI. Just wanted to clarify.

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by Ray3 Roy, in Badger you are allowed to run any injection manifold for EFI. Just wanted to clarify.

Thanks Ray3 , I think I was mixing up the VVT rule , was curious of the thinking behind you must run the stock injection manifold if you run VVT ???

[revjimk]

Originally Posted by DAD https://www.indianaopenwheel.com/alb...pictureid=3086 Now here is an inexpensive motor for D2 Midget racing

Don'tcha wish you had a time machine?
I'd grab one of those & maybe stock up on baseball cards & Model As..... hard to resist a Jaguar XKE for $4,000 too

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Roy Bleckert Thanks Ray3 , I think I was mixing up the VVT rule , was curious of the thinking behind you must run the stock injection manifold if you run VVT ???

Roy

I thought the VVT thing had been decided. Then you also have variable lift and cam profiling to look at. Most of these improvements were provided by the manufactures as a drive ability enhancer as opposed to performance enhancer. This allows them to have a cam that idles nicely and one that performs well also at highway speeds. It is part of the computer programming and as such would cost extra money to remove. When the control wires to the advancer's are removed the computer goes into "Limp Home Mode" and of course the performance is sucked right out of the engine. If a group outlawed the advancer's I am sure some one would or has came up with an adjustable aftermarket sprocket so that the cams cam be adjusted for the most power and the computer can be reprogrammed. This translates into extra cost to the racer, which I thought they were supposed to be trying to eliminate.

[Ken Bonnema]

I have always been about inclusion as opposed to exclusion. IMHO, the near perfect set of rules already exist and one word says it all....MONTPELIER!! It's based on a pretty simple concept. (1) Bring your car. (2) Race your car. (wow) I would say regarding chain drive vs. q/c who cares but obviously some folks do, but the fan in the stands likely has a hard time telling the difference ( Ya Know,if it looks like a Duck....) and the car count continues to grow. Back in the early 2k's I was on the Board with BCRA and we had very low count, some times as low as 9 cars and rarely were we over 14. We introduced Division 2 (VW's, Chev. 2 , Cosworth ect) but ran them against the regular Midgets. They had a heat, dash and all of a sudden we had around 17 cars which made us look like something so interest (and car count) grew. By the end of the ' 02 season we were running a few B mains and paying $150.00 to start the A with $75 for all non A main starters which at the time was more than USAC. Sadly myself and Gary Dickenson left the board in '03 and Div.2 was kicked to the curb, car counts fell and you probably know the rest. Am I correct that the new Div. 2 does not allow the aforementioned VW's ect? And if not, why not? How about the cars with old Fontanas and the like just sitting. Pretty sure that IF they are a little heavy on H.P., some air restrictions could be applied. The I.R.S. seems to have figured all that years ago.Bottom line is that it's about CAR COUNT 'cause the fan in the stands is very tired of 6 division shows with 10-12 cars (if that) per division. To me, it all goes back to Montpelier keeping it simple and continuing to grow. Here's some Focus history some may not be aware of. (1) The original Focus as proposed was a Honda. I saw it at Turkey Night around '98 or so. Of course, Ford's money came in so Focus it was. Then Ford's money dried up, Honda came into the picture now you all need Honda's and we know how that turned out. Now we have Speed 2 Midgets which if I am correct, (not really sure 'cause I can't find a rule book) is a Focus only group, once again excluding the Ecotec's ect. I know for a fact, those guys wanna run, but apparently are not welcome. Historic fact (2) 1/2 way thru the inaugural Focus season the point leader with several wins was Todd Hunsaker in his 100 year old T.Q. and I remember speaking with a certain ex USAC V.P. asking him what they were gonna do about THAT. He sternly replied that the champion WILL have a Ford Focus and before the end of the season he indeed did. The point here is that most of these cars are going about the same speed. To bad we can't get them all together and just let 'em race. It would be a heckofashow. Then again, there's always Montpelier....

[DAD]

Ken

I was on hand when Harold Hunter held his organizational in Indy several years ago. He listened very intently>>asked a few questions went home and drew up the rules for his Midget Class at Montpelier Speedway. The following are the specifications that are his rules for the Montpelier Midget class.

2017 Montpelier Motor Speedway Midget Rules
Midgets



Appearance
All cars shall appear and fit the guidelines of a “traditional” midget

Weight
Minimum Weight – 1,050 Pounds (Including Driver) – Cars powered by Fontana, Esslinger, Stanton, Gaerte, and other purpose built engines are legal and will fall under this guideline.

Midgets Powered By Spec Engines, Honda/Ford Focus, Volkswagen, Entirely Stock Production Block and Head, Chevy II, etc… – No Minimum Weight

Tires
Open Tire Rule (Compound and Brand) ALL 4 Corners.A maximum 10″ width right rear rim may be used. A maximum 12″ width tire may be mounted to the 10″ rim.

Use of only 1 right rear for entire race event (heat race and all features) unless approved by race official to be flat or a potential safety hazard. If a replacement is required, the replacement tire must be the same compound and brand as the tire being approved for removal. All tires will be marked following hot laps.
Mini Sprints

Appearance
All cars shall appear as a “traditional” midget

Engine/Drive Train
All 1000CC and greater Upright Mini Sprints (Non Wing) are eligible to compete in the midget class. Cars falling under Mini Sprint rules will be motorcycle engine powered and may be chain driven or utilize a traditional drive-line and quick-change rear end. All cars under caution and restarts shall maintain an idle speed as great as the full production midget. Cars that fail to do this will be sent to the tail.

Weight
No Minimum Weight

Tires
Open Tire Brand/Compound ALL 4 corners with a maximum 12″ width right rear wheel rim.

It works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>His rule is based on the right rear tire and wheel, He learned a lot in that meeting. I think he later made an amendment to prevent the MC cars from sandbagging the starts on the Midgets