[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by CRA91 Most people won't even run the Hoosier Hard tire,because once you get heat in it and say during a feature and a caution comes out and the tire cools off it then seals over and your on a freight train to the back. I've run the Medium in some pretty bad track conditions and have yet to have one not make it to the finish of the race.

Good to know. I like having the hard option though.

[Mattmac05]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights I don't like rules that reward the lazy racers who don't want to have to make an effort either in mental thought or a commitment in time. Learn to be faster.

Go spend two weeks with a new team that is trying to keep up with the teams that have been doing it for 20 years. One more constant really hopes those new teams. But, you may not like leveling the playing field both on an economic and experience scale. So you will probably just end up complaining and wondering why so many teams stop doing it. When those teams work 50 hours a week on their job, then spend all weekend at the track learning,struggling, and burning through money they might eventually call it quits because it isn't fun anymore. I have a hard time calling any racer who pays for, works on, and drives their own equipment lazy....

[Jonr]

Originally Posted by Mattmac05 Personally, I am a fan. 1) the medium is hard enough to get about 65-70 good laps out of it as long as it doesn't take rubber or get too abrasive 2) without a mandated tire that isn't terribly soft like a rd12, big teams would be running rd12's and it is difficult to compete when they are using brand new RD12s 3) it's one less setup variable for new teams. Essentially with an open tire rule, big teams would buy softer tires and change them more often, thus having both newer and softer tires. Right now those teams just have newer tires.

I think that this post is right on. There are several people who have hinted that they think that an open tire rule would help the smaller teams, and that a tire rule punishes the smaller teams to buying a certain tire. We all know that tires are the most important part of the equation of getting the car to go fast. If the well funded teams had an open tire rule, they would completely outspend everyone else. At that point, in order to compete you will have to change the tires as often as the big teams do. It is a losing battle.

[hairracer44]

Originally Posted by Jonr I think that this post is right on. There are several people who have hinted that they think that an open tire rule would help the smaller teams, and that a tire rule punishes the smaller teams to buying a certain tire. We all know that tires are the most important part of the equation of getting the car to go fast. If the well funded teams had an open tire rule, they would completely outspend everyone else. At that point, in order to compete you will have to change the tires as often as the big teams do. It is a losing battle.

I heard that part of the reason Edison quite was tire cost and the tire rule. I can not confirm that but only know it was told to me this weekend. I also have been told that the tire that was used last year on the right rear was different then the one in 2015 and some teams struggled do to that change.

As for tire cost Hoosier RR somewhere around $220, American Racer $165 to $185. Was told Hoosier LR $200 + American Racer is in the $165 range, Hoosier Fronts $175 Range I believe American Racer fronts $135 range. Yes the money guy is always going to put a new tire on but if you let the low money guys be able to spend less on tires they also will be putting on new tires more often. This also allows the low budget guys to run more races.

I understand tacking a variable out when learning what your driver and car want but you can figure that out by not changing the tire you run. This would be much cheaper to learn if you have a choice in tires to run. Choose and MC2 and run that tire while you learn.

Open Tire rules also force tire manufacturers to make a better tire and not just make a tire and say too bad run if its the rule. It creates competition between manufacturers. If you want racers to run your tire create contingency deals where if they win on your tire they get $ or a new RR.

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Mattmac05 Go spend two weeks with a new team that is trying to keep up with the teams that have been doing it for 20 years. One more constant really helpes those new teams. But, you may not like leveling the playing field both on an economic and experience scale. So you will probably just end up complaining and wondering why so many teams stop doing it. When those teams work 50 hours a week on their job, then spend all weekend at the track learning,struggling, and burning through money they might eventually call it quits because it isn't fun anymore. I have a hard time calling any racer who pays for, works on, and drives their own equipment lazy....

I've been racing for more than 30 years and I think its sad that a new generation thinks they shouldn't have to pay their dues, to put in the time and effort to learn, like those that went before them. Its totally fair for someone with experience to have an edge over someone who doesn't, that's why its called experience. Everybody starts out new(green), you make your mistakes, you learn your lessons. Too many young people these days expect they should be ushered to the front of the line, just because they are young. What I love about racing in contrast to other sports, we don't give trophies out to everyone because you showed up and participated... Maybe the new teams you mentioned should take your advice and spend 2 weeks with the guys who've been doing it for 20 years instead of rewriting the rules to accommodate their lack of knowledge and motivation. I've been the new guy, everybody has, but I didn't ask to have the rules rewritten to accommodate my skill level, I read, I asked questions and I took the time to learn. One thing that a very experienced racer told me when I was starting out, and its the same for most everyone, "If racing were easy, everyone would do it." - Leon Sells

You see racing is more like real life than the xbox games and sports this younger generation are use to. There are no do overs, no cheats to win the game or give unlimited lives. Racing as in life, requires hard work, sacrifice, dedication and experience to have success. The mistake most make in racing is not racing a class they can actually afford, I read an article several years ago that said a lot of teams are 2 sometimes 3 classes above what their budget would support. Everybody works in racing, 50 hours actually sounds like a nice week, let me know when you start having to do 6 or 7, 12 hour days and racing must stop completely until further notice.... Learn to be fast, learn about attracting and keeping sponsors, put in the time, it won't always be fun, but that my friend is life.

Back in 07' and 08' I was helping out on a crate late model team and we had an HOF driver, we raced 2-3 times a week and won at least 1 show a week and ran 2nd or 3rd in the others. I had a younger guy come up to me that was racing against us that was furious about his tire expenses, he said that the tires were terrible and he was having to put on (2)new rears every race and that it wasn't fair(this was with a tire rule). I looked at him and told him, you may want to look at your setup or how your driving the car because we were getting 2 races out of our RR tire and 3-4 out of the other 3 and winning, he was barely in the top 5 and running new rubber every race... Just because having an open tire rule makes it where you can run "new" rubber whenever you want, doesn't mean its always an advantage or necessary.

Budget minded teams learn how to maximize their resources, use different grooving techniques and grinding to extend tire life. You learn you don't leave tires out in the sun, don't wash tires with "simple green" type cleaners because it pulls the oils out of the rubber and on and on. If your a new team with limited experience, instead of trying to, "monkey see-monkey do" what the experienced guys are doing, put yourself on a tire rule, focus on learning to drive and setup the car correctly instead of trying to match components. A go-pro would have been a God send back when I was coming up or video on phones, you can learn so much. Compare what your car looks like going around the track compared to the fast guys, if you or your driver isn't driving the car correctly tire rules won't fix your issues. Now I'm not saying its a talent issue, its a technique issue, which takes practice to get it right, "perfect practice", not doing it wrong over and over. If your the driver find someone who'll be honest with you and watch you drive and tell you what your doing wrong. Don't make excuses, be honest with yourself.

[the1jet17]

I run North Vernon because American Racer Tires are 75% the cost of a Hoosier. I also don't agree with Hoosier having "deals" with teams that are forced to run their tires anyway. In all reality, my $220 RR Tire purchase is paying for those other teams to get free tires. Those teams getting the free tires probably don't need the free tire.

Tire rules are dumb. It doesn't matter if you can choose a soft, medium, or hard, the top national teams are going to put brand new tires on the rear of the car almost every time it hits the track. I can't afford that and refuse to throw away a tire that has one night on it like many of the national teams do.

If I lived closer to Ohio, I'd support the BOSS series more just because they allow American Racer Tires and Hoosier Tires. Multiple tracks last year created a "Hoosier Only" rule and that cost me $1500 as I then I had to buy 4 left rears and 2 fronts just to race the local tracks.

[darnall]

As an owner-operator with absolutely zero budget my best case scenario would be a track that had a minimum durometer rule...and if they also said you must start the A main on the same RR that you ran in the heat race that would suit me even better. I already know my used tire is at a disadvantage, but if I knew I didn't have to compete against people willing to completely use up a softer tire every time they rolled out on the track I would feel like I was up against less of a disadvantage. And the durometer rule means I can use whatever brand or whatever stamped spec tire I dug out of the trailer or found the best deal on.

[Mattmac05]

Taking your lumps in this age is a little different than it used to be. The cost to race in the past 30 years has easily increased by over 50% in maNY classes. Yet the payout for a specific special race has only increased by around $200 in 30 years. Not to mention, the challange of finding sponsors in a world where spectators are dwindling and the value of a racing sponsorship is decreasing. This financial challenge can greatly effect the amount of time a team has from going from being 'green' and logging laps, to needing to start covering expenses by finishing better to get a better payout. You see experienced, respected, talented, and hardworking racers give up the sport because it just isn't like it used to be, or it isn't worth. So, why not make it just a tad bit easier for everybody, even the experienced guy. I am not saying it has to be a tire rule, it could be any rule. But when you are dealing with dwindling car counts, 1 or 2 spec part rule can really help everyone, even those experienced guys.

With current shock and suspension technolgy the amount of adjustability in sprint cars is vastly greater than it used to be. Shocks now can have 15 plus different settings per shock. Trust me, crew chiefs and drivers never run out of things to think about to try and squeeze out a little more speed.

Many drivers would gladly burn 1000s of hours turning laps and testing to make up every gap in experience, but you just can't do that in a sc, and the teams you see who take every track test n tune opp, and are there from gate open to gate close, improving and getting better are not lazy. But I am done arguing about this, it is way off topic.

[wvwildthg]

They still do ...just keep putting fresh rubber on, you can't say new tires don't have advantage...

[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Mattmac05 Taking your lumps in this age is a little different than it used to be. The cost to race in the past 30 years has easily increased by over 50% in maNY classes. Yet the payout for a specific special race has only increased by around $200 in 30 years. Not to mention, the challange of finding sponsors in a world where spectators are dwindling and the value of a racing sponsorship is decreasing. This financial challenge can greatly effect the amount of time a team has from going from being 'green' and logging laps, to needing to start covering expenses by finishing better to get a better payout. You see experienced, respected, talented, and hardworking racers give up the sport because it just isn't like it used to be, or it isn't worth. So, why not make it just a tad bit easier for everybody, even the experienced guy. I am not saying it has to be a tire rule, it could be any rule. But when you are dealing with dwindling car counts, 1 or 2 spec part rule can really help everyone, even those experienced guys. With current shock and suspension technolgy the amount of adjustability in sprint cars is vastly greater than it used to be. Shocks now can have 15 plus different settings per shock. Trust me, crew chiefs and drivers never run out of things to think about to try and squeeze out a little more speed. Many drivers would gladly burn 1000s of hours turning laps and testing to make up every gap in experience, but you just can't do that in a sc, and the teams you see who take every track test n tune opp, and are there from gate open to gate close, improving and getting better are not lazy. But I am done arguing about this, it is way off topic.

I agree, cost containment is a neccessity, but rewriting the rules to help out somebody who doesn't want to make the effort because it interferes with FB time or isn't instantly successful, is an insult to those of us who've been dedicated for 30+ years. I don't mind helping the new guys, when they'll listen, I love teaching, but racing isn't "t-ball", it only rewards those who actually perform better than the rest. That can mean different things, sometimes its being the fastest, sometimes it means outlasting the other guy and sometimes its putting yourself in position to take advantage of luck smiling on you. I don't mind having rules that curb costs, but I don't want to be put in a box all together so my experience means nothing, I left DLM & Karting for that very reason.

In the late 90's I wanted to learn more about suspension, so I applied for and got a job at Carrera Racing Shocks. It paid $8 per/hr to start and that was a $2 per/hr cut from where I'd been at that time. I was married, my wife was still in college and we had a house, so to make ends meet I delivered pizza at night and cleaned offices for a few extra bucks when I got done with pizza. I started as an assembler, but by the end of the first year I was promoted to production supervisor and soon began assisting engineering with R&D and overseeing all repairs. You see nobody else out on the floor, outside engineering and tech/sales, really cared about the products or what made them work, I did. I made the effort to learn and put in the effort and ask questions. My tenure lasted from 98'-04' when the company was sold to QA1. I'm still friends with the founder/owner D!ck Anderson and have contacts in the racing world, but I was willing to sacrifice and take the time to learn from those who had experience and knowledge. I was later offered jobs with Genesis Racing Shocks when they started up and at MagneShock too, but I'd moved from the area and wasn't able to realize those opportunities.

Having rules to nullify experience and so called, "level the playing field" is just plain wrong. Its the same as telling the guy who went to med school/college/internship, to learn to be a surgeon, that we've decided to let a highschool drop out take over doing operations because he really wanted the job and didn't want to be bothered with education...