[Ray3]

Originally Posted by jdull99 I respectively nominate this gentleman for president of all things to do with anything called "2.4 racing"!!!

Jason, everything he described in that rule book is already implemented in the Badger rules.

[bobby01]

MRAY3
I think that you missed my point. Once we as racers and engine builders start modifying we start the snowball effect. We all know that the Esslinger can trace it's roots to the 2.3 pinto the Fontana has roots from the ChevyII even the Offy can be traced to the Model T Ford even the new national engines Mopar Chevy and Toyota come from a variation of Ron Hottell's Sesco 1/2 V8 chevy.
As soon as we start modifying with Hi compression pistons the next weak link shows up so we install better rods then the crankshaft fails so now we buy an aftermarket crank and it go's on and on.It's not that one item is terrible expensive it's the little bit mores that stack up.
I know that everybody say's just tech it but the problem is the racetrack operators and sanctioning bodies do not what to spend the money for the equipment and personal to do the job and us as racers don't want to disassemble our engines at the racetrack in the dirt. This debate has going as long as I can remember how to make racing affordable if and when this ever happens that will be a first.
I really don't know what the answer is but I do know We all want the same thing which is affordable Midget racing.
Dad
Leave them Stock.
We both are saying the same thing but GM,Ford,Chrysler and Honda have left to much on the table to go get and that's the problem. They designed these engines so Carla can take the grand kids to soccer practice in her HHR and to chase down race car parts for her midget.
My deal is if the powers in charge catch someone blatantly cheating ban them and there car even if they sell it for life. They have to make the penalty brutal so no one will take the chance.
Bobby Layne

[Crankin]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis If you don't like D-2 rules you can always go race a national midget.....damn give it a chance to work its self out before all you na sayers throw it under the bus. Why can't you just LOVE midget racing period and not ***** about it....most of you are not ever gonna race a D-2 midget or a Badger 2.4...

AMEN!
Seriously Mark, enough already, please. You and your family have been the biggest naysayers on both social media, and elsewhere, about the stock D2 format.
If I was your average race fan, or promoter reading/hearing this constant bickering.... BEFORE THE FIRST RACE WAS EVEN RUN, I wouldn't even bother giving it a chance..... Which is what everybody needs to do, give it a chance.

Now with that said, and at the risk of doing a 180 on what I did just say, I gotta ask...
Why wouldn't the person who started this thread be concerned about D2 (even though it is not D2, but BADGER rules) going that direction? You are in line with, supporting, good buddies with, whatever your alliance is with them?.... One of the main reasons engine costs are what they are, Esslinger.
A company who's core of customers has dwindled over the years because most can't afford their's, or any other national engine program (not that they created this, that's on the org's for letting it get out of control, but they had no problem taking your $30K). So in turn to replace that lost business, they (Esslinger) are all over this new D2 thing (they will even build you an Ecotec !!!???) and are one of the loudest (mostly behind the scenes) lobbyists to get rules more in line with the way they want to build engines.

Does it not bother you at all that by going this route, that the cycle will just start all over again?? It already starts out being more expensive for their long block, by doing whatever it is they (or you) do. Then, as is ALWAYS the case, new things are developed to get that little bit of horsepower gain. Then another, Then another. Then everybody has to buy that thing to keep up with the other thing, and pretty soon, we're at $25K for an engine... And on, and up, it goes.
Then, the engines are being put past the limit they were designed for, and start breaking more, which in turn leads to buying more stuff, to replace the stuff that was pushed past it's limit, plus those new fancy items that you gotta have, need to be replaced too... The same old formula Midget racing has followed since the death of the VW.

Now on the other side of the fence:
Just yesterday, I watched a new D2 convert fire off their new stock Ecotec. This guy was a National Midget guy who could no longer justify the costs to run at that level, but can afford the top of the line in the stock D2 world ( I am assuming so because he sold is National engine ). So, he bought a stock Ecotec, with, in the real world, has all the nice stuff on it. Dry sump (which is not needed), nice gadgets, Electromotive Tec-S (NOT the $6K type that I'm sure not too many people will be buying for this level of racing... not saying nobody, if they're are foolish enough to do so, so be it, but in the real world, there won't be too many of those floating around), and a real pretty Kinsler Injection system (again, not needed, but would be nice to have ). His cost, installed, plumbed, fired off, and ready to race, through his engine builder was $15,500. This is the HIGH end, top of the line, of the spectrum. Again, with pieces that will most likely stay with the car til it's done...

If he has a catastrophic engine failure, in most cases, he just needs to replace what has broken, with stuff out of a junkyard. In most cases, his one time purchase items (the Kinsler, the electronic doo dads, etc.) are just bolted back on the new piece. No exotic lightweight, EXPENSIVE items to replace, just boneyard items, and he's back racing.... What in the world can be wrong with that?

By comparison, for those that might be a taken aback by that $#, please know that we have pieced together a package, through that same engine builder for a little over half that amount by buying lots of used stuff, making trades, deals, whatever it took. Dis-assembled the engine (which I got for $300 at our local junkyard... I knew the owner so I got it a little cheaper... usually a 2-3 hundred more) ourselves to learn it, and save $. We have the same ECU, and have a stock plenum. And, when we can afford to do so, will upgrade to a different injection system. BUT, with that said, I am more than confident that our pieced together car will be able to run with the guy mentioned above on tracks like Macon, Jacksonville, etc.... And if we can't we'll throw the engine guy under the bus, go spend another $20k elsewhere, and never admit that we just didn't have the set-up knowledge, or driving talent to keep up with him.
But I digress..


Look, BADGER thinks their formula is the better mouse trap, and POWRi,ILLINI, USAC, IMRA, and Wayne have their mousetrap..... The racers will decide in the end what works for them. Getting on a message board and claiming the other formula is screwed up, accomplishes nothing but harm to all.

Again, the first race hasn't even hit the track. Will the stock group have enough tech to satisfy the racers? We'll see. You haven't been in their meetings to know how they're going to do things, which would be the same as anyone else spouting how they know what BADGER is going to do. Let's just show up to the races, and work it out from there.
May the best mousetrap win!

Originally Posted by DAD M In any entry level racing division there will always be people placing more faith in the Motive Power rather than in the power of that "NUT" just behind the steering wheel. We all know that the engine builder knows the secret on how to make me win and heck I know that I am as good of driver as AJ could ever hope to be. The quickest way to end the tec is to allow what ever you brung, the down side of this is with human nature being what it is, there will always be somebody willing to out spend the competition. As far as MoTec and ECU's. A world leader in aftermarket units. I think the 8000 is the top of the line unit that even includes Data Acquisition ability. A bit over kill but there are guys that will roll up in a quarter million dollar hauler with one on their D2 midget to win a $500.00 race. I can guarantee it. A very good workable unit can be bought for around $1000.00, and it will last a lifetime and can be moved from engine platform to engine platform. NOW the real secret Kiddo's. These cars perform best and put on the best racing on tracks in the 1/5th to 1/4 mile in size. The racers in Illinois have a distinct advantage here. On tracks of these sizes even a pretty much stock D2 can hang with a full blown TRO, HOW COME??? Or even better yet spend $10,000.00 with American Racer and have a mold made for a 10" wide Right rear tire, Now Horsepower has been taken out of the equation all together and a premium on set up and driving skills will have replaced Horse Power. Honest Dad himself

I can't believe I'm actually going to add fuel to the DAD fire, but this is got to be one of the best things you have said.

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by Crankin AMEN! Now on the other side of the fence: His cost, installed, plumbed, fired off, and ready to race, through his engine builder was $15,500. This is the HIGH end, top of the line, of the spectrum. Again, with pieces that will most likely stay with the car til it's done...

I think this says everything everyone needs to know about the "D2" rules. Now add the extra 5k for the MoTec unit and the installed cost becomes $20,500. Case closed. Good luck to everyone this season no matter what or where you're racing.

[Crankin]

Originally Posted by Ray3 I think this says everything everyone needs to know about the "D2" rules. Now add the extra 5k for the MoTec unit and the installed cost becomes $20,500. Case closed. Good luck to everyone this season no matter what or where you're racing.

Sigh.

[MRAY3]

First off Mr. Crankin, I don’t know that you and I have ever even met, so I don’t know how you know so much about me or my ties with anybody. Of course, I noticed that only one of us has bothered to attach his name to his post, so I don’t know to whom I am even responding. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but I was the 11th person to post on this topic, not the first. And all I did is post some facts and ask a couple of questions. Is that not allowed on a public message board? Is there really anything wrong with asking how tech is going to be performed? I personally find it more disturbing that nobody from the sanctioning body is willing to be open and up-front about their plans for enforcing the rules. If I was planning to put together a legal “stock” D-2 midget, I would first like to know that I would be racing against all other legal “stock” D-2 midgets. Is that thought process unreasonable? As far as calling someone out for building an engine and offering it for sale, why would you do that? The rules were written long before this engine was built. If you’re angry at them for wanting to sell their product, why aren’t you calling out any other D-2 engine builders who offer their products for sale? I know at least one of them lobbied very hard to get “any programmable ignition/fuel injection system” allowed.


Mark Ray

[DAD]

Crankin


Thank You for the kind words. D2 seems to be the hot topic. Everyone involved in these discussions on IOW and I guess elsewhere I would think wants the D2 idea to work. You ask why? and I would say because each person loves Midget racing in it's pure form. As in any racing class from Go Karts to Formula I Money and the spending of it on performance always seems to take center stage. Each of us have an idea of how best to do it. The answer is somewhere in the middle. I guess this is my reason for liking the idea of having a Benevolent Dictator to take charge. A good example would be Harold Hunter at Montpelier. I don't agree with all oh his ideas, but I know he made them in the hope of making his class work and so far he has pulled it off, and the success of his class has a direct outcome on his bottom line. I have seen other organizers make rules to favor certain people or groups without regard for the average racer and this I do not accept.

The Badger guys have a reason for their more generous rule package. Their primary race track is a fast Horsepower track and lower Horsepower cars do not put on much of a show on these types of race tracks. Thus they are looking for more power by adding cams>valve springs, valves high compression pistons and after market rods. They achieved their most power with the addition of the high compression pistons. Those cams, valves, valve springs and rods did not do much for their bottom line. BUT they felt it very necessary to get the best performance out of their cars. To get the potential out of those cams and valves porting will be required and then watch costs sky rocket. The motorcycle manufactures have just came out with a new generation of motor that have about eclipsed the performance available with a naturally aspirated engine. They had better hope that a racer does not show up with a new Kawasaki motor bolted in a race car. These motors have become very expensive and require a lot of extra stuff to put into a car to race. In the past Mini Sprint racers never even thought about repairing their blown motors. Those parts were just plain too expensive, they just went out and bought another motor. The same should hold true with D2 Midgets. They must stay current with whatever the auto makers are producing. That means that while 2.4 motors should be allowed all of a sudden they are going to have to recognize 2.0 supercharged motors as well. Hopefully the gene pool will keep getting better until electrics takes over. Then I guess Punt. Ask Casey Shuman, I think he drove an electric Midget a few years ago.

It should be interesting to see how well the basic stock D2 Midget runs with Badger Midget. If D2 Midget is to grow there needs to be an attempt to keep the motors basically stock. Maybe we can sell the racers some pipe hones and other do dads to keep them interested. I know Money always seems to take over racing but the winners will always be the guys with experience and know how driving a specific cars with specific built engines that all the back markers are paying big bucks to try and buy to beat them guys out in front. The best way to sell a race car, engine or even dodad part is to give it to a winning team and have them use it. Hopefully the new racer will stay in long enough they will be racing them guys up front, but it wont be because of the motors that they bought.

Honest Dad himself

[Jonr]

As this thread has shown, there are a wide range of opinions on this topic. Somewhere, I think that we have lost our point of reference. Everyone can agree that spending $30k to 40k on a "National" engine is the upper limit of the conversation. We can also agree that this will limit many people from purchasing this engine. However, I think all of the conversation about running junkyard parts on a midget is almost as unrealistic.

As a guy who went to the junkyard to get suspension parts for his entry level stock car, it was always a pain. Not many times did I wake up and say, "Hey, lets go to the junk yard. Let's hope that the mud puddles have drained and the mosquitos won't eat me up, Lets hope that the guy who stacked the cars three deep on top of each other was paying attention and I don't have a car fall on me. Lets hope that last bolt doesn't strip off and the 30 minutes I spent to harvest this part is not wasted. Lets hope that I get the owners son who hates being at the junk yard and charges me half price instead of the owner who wants to charge me top dollar." So once you fight that battle, you get to refurbish the parts that you bought. The next day a racing catalog shows up and you can buy the same part refurbished for $25 more than what you have tied up in the parts and the refurbish. Well, it doesn't take much to say, I would gladly pay $25 more to get it store bought. The same is going to happen with the engine parts as well.

Also, when was it said that spending $15k to $20k for a midget motor was unrealistic. I am willing to bet that most of the A-mods that I watched last night have that much in their motor program. I would imagine that some of the Super stocks that I watched were also approaching that number. Good grief, entry level stock classes people have $3k to $5k in their motors.

Is the answer for an economical midget division a $40k motor? Probably not. However, to think that you will be building up a junk yard motor is probably just as unrealistic.

My final question is how many people are having this debate with a $40k tow truck and a $10k enclosed trailer. Racers spend money in some of the strangest places.

[DAD]

Jonr

The answer is pretty simple. Buy the newest, lowest mileage motor you can find and bolt your parts to it and go racing. If you have to refurbish it don't buy it those parts and labor are just plain too expensive.

Honest Dad himself

[Quantrill]

I was listen to an interview with French Grimes a few years ago ( founder of racesaver 305 motors)and the interviewer ask French. You say you can build a racersaver for 6k but some motor builders are charging 18k for one? He said you can go out and build a 410 bottom end but it wont do you any good. He was saying it was a waste of money. Is that esslinger motor bad fast, Probably but is it Poweri and USAC legal?