[DAD]

Originally Posted by LEADERS EDGE Ok....so when the same people who we are trying to start new racing series to get away from....get on board with the program and start winning all of the races again....is that when we change the formula again? Don't you guys think that Toyota,Honda, Chevy, Ford and Kia wouldn't rather just use engine packages like in their street cars rather than build specific racing engines? What do you think will happen then? There are several teams who use and have used the Toyota engines.....but only one team has dominated. Oddly....it's the same team that won races when they had Chevys and when they had Esslingers and when they had Fontanas and when they MoPars. Something tells me it's not just the engines. Trust me....95% of the guys racing aren't a motor rule and tire change away from being a hero.

Leader

You are very correct. Attention to detail, chassis set up, and talented drivers are what is required for victory. These top teams are going to win day in and day out. Those new Chevy's and Mo Par's motors weren't no slouches.

I have set my sites a little lower and I think perhaps there are a lot of other people that do not wish to race in or with the top echelon of racers. Why not develop a class that also prohibits these very high tec motors and allows racers to race with maybe only sacrificing a finger instead of an arm and leg.

Harold is very close to the formula at Montpelier. But in racing there will always be somebody that will sacrifice a lot of money to win a very small prize.

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

Originally Posted by polecar what does everyone think about being able to swap parts? like 2.0 head 2.2 block and 2.4 crank. and still be 2.4 displacement. i don't really like it. it takes away from the stock 2.4 motor.

Pole

Unless they develop a supper Tec inspector, nobody will ever know. Check ports for stock>>check bore and stroke for stock dimensions>>check cams for stock lift>>slap them on the butt and move em out. Like Leader said Motor power is not paramount in racing. There are many other things that need to be factored in to be successful in racing. Unfortunately many people do place most of their trust in the engine only.

Honest Dad himself

[polecar]

we all know that the new rules are to save money. some clubs want to swap parts to make more hp. and save money compared to the purpose built motors. nobody is saying that if KKM ran an eco tec motor he would never win again. that's crazy.

[LEADERS EDGE]

Dad....In the last 46 years I have never seen a rules package intended to save money and increase car counts ever do what the intention was. You tell me today that you feel this is an alternative option, but that is not what you have said in the past. There are already several alternatives to National Midgets available today....why do you feel there should be another ? Especially one that I doubt you have any intention of ever purchasing and supporting yourself. Look at all the different divisions of sprint cars....410 360 carb and injected 358,305 open and racesaver and 2 different crate motors all in wing and non wing. All started because the sport is too expensive and it needs to be saved. I don't know why any promoter pays anyone to come race. They should charge a 100 bucks for the privilege of being on a track. Too much supply versus demand.

I just hope that USAC will adopt some sort of program similar to the Montpelier deal without competing against them and just provide a little series in Indiana for guys to compete in. Whatever motor you want to run and drop the green.

[Revolution Racing]

"I guess Chett is driving one of the last Revolution ECOtec's built."

Dad,
Actually Chett is driving one of the very FIRST ones ever built. After the first production run of engines, Chett called me and said he'd really like one but could not afford an all new one. I put his together from used parts we had laying around. Chett's motor is BONE STOCK internally, and he has put a stupid number of races on it. I promise you that thing is nothing fancy. I would invite anyone to put it on a dyno. It won't make much more than about 210hp.

Chet's just a really good driver.

Of course, nobody wants to believe any of that.

Originally Posted by DAD WB I guess Chett is driving one of the last Revolution ECOtec's built. The problem faced with D II Midgets is not making them all equal Horsepower >>>the problem is giving the most competitive engines a chance to race. Right now there are many ideas on how to make them competitive and economical. The problem most people feel that to be economical and fair the parts or engines should be purchased from a specific source. To guys like me>>>that ain't economical. We have raced Mini Sprints for a lot of years now. Generally whenever we blew a motor up we bought a new low mileage motor off of Ebay and continued racing with a little newer and faster technology. This has served us well over the years. Granted the automotive motors leave a little more to be desired in their state of tune as opposed to the Motorcycle engines but I think with just a little extra massaging they can be made to perform quite well. Right now there are some people out there touting the advantages of the 2.4 Midget class. They are writing up rules and specification to keep everyone in compliance. Only one problems that I see. 2.4 Liter engines are now obsolete as far as manufactures are concerned. Their engine of choice has be replace in the automotive line up with a 2.5 Liter motor or smaller displacement motors using either Superchargers or Turbo chargers. We have become very Political Correct in the last few years. Junk Yards are now called Automotive Recycle Facilities. As such many of them now render unusable cars down to their elements and sell them as recycled metals usually to China. That means that in 5 years there will be very few 2.4 motors available for racers. We have entered the age of throw away motors. Just like in Mini Sprints it is easier to buy new and forget about a freshen up. With race cars Horsepower is found in the cylinder head. The Ecotec has a superior head. That make it the champ. Other must play catch up. Horsepower is also found in Compression Ratio>>the higher the CR the more power the engine will produce. Auto makers have started developing Direct injection>>just like a Diesel they inject the fuel directly into the combustion just before it is needed to ignite. By doing this they can run some very high compression ratios with some very low octane fuel. If D II midget are to survive and grow the organizers and rule makers must figure a way to factor in these advancements as they are introduced to the market. That old cry of oh you are going to raise the cost of racing by making racers buy new engines as they come on line rings kind of hollow because right now most of these new engines can be bought through recyclers for 2 to 3 thousand dollars much cheaper than a freshen up. Were I making the rules I would probably allow high compression pistons but would dis allow the rods that go with them. The pistons would allow them to be more compatible with Methanol and the stock rods would limit the rpm's. I would probably allow heavier valve springs but also disallow aftermarket valve and other components. I would not allow any port work period and make after market throttle bodies an option. I would allow engine management alteration because a car on the track has much different performance parameters than those on the street engine. Because of where the engine is placed in the frame a dry sump oiling system might be required. The USAC cars seem to work well with wet sump and an accumulator that would be the preferred method from the cost standpoint. Both PowrI and USAC are thinking about this class of cars as well as several groups in Illinois and even out on the left coast. It is sure going to be interesting watching people come to grips with this new form of open wheel racing. Honest Dad himself

[LEADERS EDGE]

After roughly 14 years....Keith and I can finally agree on one thing....Chett Gherke is a driver of high caliber.

[DAD]

Leader

For the very first time auto makers are producing smaller>lighter>and much more competitive engines. It is possible to take one of these engines and install it in a Midget Chassis and be somewhat competitive with the National Midget engine costing Much Much more. In the past the automotive engine be it the v8 60>Iron Duke>VW> or Pinto required a lot of modification to make them suitable for racing.

As Keith stated we now have engines that can perform quite competitively even without expensive internal work or for that matter even extensive port work. You haven't noticed the difference. If someone could build a class around a stock block>stock cylinder head>and stock rotating assembly and be competitive with much more expensive purpose built engines, wouldn't it make sense to build a class around it. Chett has proven that this type of engine can win against purpose built motors.

I see he won again using a purpose built engine last night. Lets not put too much importance in driving ability however. Right now his driving ability has seemed to have got him in a little hot water racing with the D II racers (they know that it is the engine and not the driver) The question to them would be how many of them are good enough to win when racing at Montpelier against that class of competition. Good drivers can make a $hit Box look good. I think I understand you feelings for the standard Midget race car. The newer motors are changing every year getting smaller and more efficient with every change. They have introduced ideas like forced induction that has always been taboo in open wheel racing, electronic engine management and electronic injection. All of these changes have gone into the formula that makes them so competitive. I realize for a guy used to looking at a little gauges and popping pills all night long it does not make sense to have a little black box that does the pill popping thing by the mili-second as required.

I don't pretend that that these engines are the cure to everything, but if they make it inexpensive enough for local tracks to support them and aspiring racers could race close to home and aspire to one day make it up to the Major League>>> then they will have done Midget racing a service.

At 68 years old I am slowing down in the doing department BUT that does not prevent my mind from asking why the heck not. I enjoy our conservations.

Honest Dad himself

[jjones752]

"Lets not put too much importance in driving ability"? Usually you say driver feel/setup is paramount; Things may have looked a little more evenly matched last week if anyone else had gone to the top. It also would have been interesting to see what might have happened if Andy hadn't endoed at the start. Would have been fun to see those two go to the front.

[DAD]

Jim

We call Andy's flip at the start a crap shoot (attempting to win a 27 lap race before reaching the first turn following the green flag). Some times you are a Hero and sometimes a Zero>>just a racing deal. Now as far as the Mini sprint vs automotive engine powered midget. There were several mini sprints that could have kept up with or out run Chett. That race however there were non that could or would out drive him. When you start on the back you have several laps to feel out the track and determine where it is fast when you start up front you are sometimes more concerned with protecting your position, I think that was the case for the Gloria Shipman Race
.

Honest Dad himself

[Sling'n DIRT]

Originally Posted by jjones752 "Lets not put too much importance in driving ability"? Usually you say driver feel/setup is paramount; Things may have looked a little more evenly matched last week if anyone else had gone to the top. It also would have been interesting to see what might have happened if Andy hadn't endoed at the start. Would have been fun to see those two go to the front.

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