[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by DAD Wayne So if I were to get an $8000.00 raised port Esslinger head and put it on my old 166 engine I might have to raise my tire pressure? Honest Dad himself

Bill, Let me thinks about.NO!!!!!

[red70racer]

Okay guys, this is my beef, I didn't feel I could say much, their sandlot, their ball and bat.....
I contacted the shootout people by e-mail on more than 1 occasion trying to clarify rules, every time they requested I call their office. (no paper trail?)
My reasoning is we did some unheard of things in today's credit card cookie cutter racing by using salvage yard parts and some good old back yard engineering. They were in my opinion very evasive with answers. The only 3 rules they would really stand on was age, tire and weight.
I have a HUGE issue with the change of the 1 hard and fast rule the day of the competition. Most of you folks reading this do not know me, I think I'm pretty much a reasonable person. I am also a person when someone steps on my toes I say OW.
I went to the office to question why and how they can change the rules the day of the race. The answer just about floored me
"there were 6 cars that couldn't make the weight without adding lead, which we feel is unsafe"
What we had here was some elite (money) teams that in my opinion skirted the rules, didn't build their cars to what I consider the spirit of the rules. Folks, there were ecotecs out there that sounded like a full blown race engine with the rumble and and shake of a national midget. Of course those 6 teams knew the same hard and fast rules I did when I built my race car. By the way they can easily add weight, the other 17 of us could no way in the world could remove enough weight to be close to their USAC/POWRi weights
Again in my opinion they might have shot themselves in the foot as a lot of the true ecotec teams were as disappointed as I was that it turned to what it has.
A kicker as we were on the platform getting ready to go down the ramp I was told we have to disconnect 1 of our 2 cockpit adjusters. When I asked why I was told "it's a rule" I lost my cool and told them what I thought about their rules.
With all that said, we did have fun, and our 1175 pound home built ecotec went from 20th to 9th in 11 laps until we knocked a hole in the oil pan when there was a flip and had to take evasive action and jumped the inside burm.
Mr Davis, I take my hat off to you, a series is only as good as the people running it
Jeff Palazzolo
Pacific, MO

[MWRmgr1010]

It truly is a shame for rules to change mid day because some high dollar teams are not building their cars to the rule book. In my opinion they knowingly built a light car just so they could have an argument on adding lead weight and it's safety. Honestly adding weight is safe when the person adding it knows how to properly secure it.

We showed up with our two #10s and weighed in at 1120 and 1130. We had a 10# block on one car to make weight. These are Illini Series Cars. The fact that we came in 3Rd and 8th (from the tail of the field) is a victory in our book.

Integrity is everything when u show up at the track. If you show up illegal get legal or go home. I would have rather seen 17 cars roll off the feature that rolled off the trailer correct to the rules than make a change to give only 6 cars an advantage over the rest of the field.

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by MWRmgr1010 It truly is a shame for rules to change mid day because some high dollar teams are not building their cars to the rule book. In my opinion they knowingly built a light car just so they could have an argument on adding lead weight and it's safety. Honestly adding weight is safe when the person adding it knows how to properly secure it. We showed up with our two #10s and weighed in at 1120 and 1130. We had a 10# block on one car to make weight. These are Illini Series Cars. The fact that we came in 3Rd and 8th (from the tail of the field) is a victory in our book. Integrity is everything when u show up at the track. If you show up illegal get legal or go home. I would have rather seen 17 cars roll off the feature that rolled off the trailer correct to the rules than make a change to give only 6 cars an advantage over the rest of the field.

That is well said MWR

[Wayne Davis]

Just in case you have not gone to the sssprints.com web page here are the simple to the point rules

2015 Gator "DIRT" Nationals rules:

Must be midget style body hood tail tank
13" tires and wheels only
RR wheel 12" max...LR wheel 10" max...FT. wheels 8"max
OLDER National Midget engines... 8" LR wheel and 10" RR wheel

NO newer National Engines allowed as in Esslinger,Fontana,Toyota,Mopar ect.

Older push rod motors (166 only)
RR SP-4 and LR D-12 only with mim. hardness (Durometer).
Durometer will be determined after I receive the shipment of tires from HOOSIER. I will take the lowest duro reading off all tires and that will determine the number of what it will be
Mandated mim. pressure starting Thursday 12 LR...16 RR....at end of each race.
(If needed we will up that pressure on Fri. night. Must run same tire you start the night with.

2.4 Max Ecotec/Durotec/Honda/1000cc engines:
NO PORTING or POLISHING of Cly. head
Aftermarket rods, piston, cam OK; Must have stock head and engine block No mix-matched block and heads.
Stock Crank, Bore and Stroke

Focus only: 2.0 engines head work allowed. Must have stock crank and stroke
ALL chain drive Motorcycle engines must have clutch and all gears in transmission

Weight:
Lightning sprint - 1000cc-940 after race with driver..1200cc-1040 after race
D-2 Midgets - 1125 after race with driver
166 Midgets - 1150 after race with driver

Tire rule: RR tires will be durometer and must not read under 40 before or after any race.
All 166 will be what a new SP-4 is 65-68 (see above 166 )
NO incockpit adjustment of anykind except (manual brake valve ok)

These are the rules for the 2015 GDN with NO (ZERO) flexibility

[DAD]

Originally Posted by red70racer Okay guys, this is my beef, I didn't feel I could say much, their sandlot, their ball and bat..... I contacted the shootout people by e-mail on more than 1 occasion trying to clarify rules, every time they requested I call their office. (no paper trail?) My reasoning is we did some unheard of things in today's credit card cookie cutter racing by using salvage yard parts and some good old back yard engineering. They were in my opinion very evasive with answers. The only 3 rules they would really stand on was age, tire and weight. I have a HUGE issue with the change of the 1 hard and fast rule the day of the competition. Most of you folks reading this do not know me, I think I'm pretty much a reasonable person. I am also a person when someone steps on my toes I say OW. I went to the office to question why and how they can change the rules the day of the race. The answer just about floored me "there were 6 cars that couldn't make the weight without adding lead, which we feel is unsafe" What we had here was some elite (money) teams that in my opinion skirted the rules, didn't build their cars to what I consider the spirit of the rules. Folks, there were ecotecs out there that sounded like a full blown race engine with the rumble and and shake of a national midget. Of course those 6 teams knew the same hard and fast rules I did when I built my race car. By the way they can easily add weight, the other 17 of us could no way in the world could remove enough weight to be close to their USAC/POWRi weights Again in my opinion they might have shot themselves in the foot as a lot of the true ecotec teams were as disappointed as I was that it turned to what it has. A kicker as we were on the platform getting ready to go down the ramp I was told we have to disconnect 1 of our 2 cockpit adjusters. When I asked why I was told "it's a rule" I lost my cool and told them what I thought about their rules. With all that said, we did have fun, and our 1175 pound home built ecotec went from 20th to 9th in 11 laps until we knocked a hole in the oil pan when there was a flip and had to take evasive action and jumped the inside burm. Mr Davis, I take my hat off to you, a series is only as good as the people running it Jeff Palazzolo Pacific, MO

Jeff

Is there any way possible that you could take 100 pounds off of your car by replacing bolts with titanium, body panels with carbon fiber. I don't think so. the tec people were worried about adding on weight would be dangerous. What they should have worried about was are the frame rails being built out of lighter gauge tubing than any reasonable rule would have required. In the case of Tulsa that would not be a problem, since there was no standard to go by. I would bet an Echotec motor itself out weighs an Esslinger by 50 pounds at least.

Every race organizations should have one of these things http://www.ebay.com/itm/Check-Line-M...item3a94b2621a It is an ultrasonic thickness tester. Many years ago several frame manufactures built what they called their light weight chassis. What they did was replace the frame rails with .049" to .060" tubing. Doing this it is possible to loose 50 or 60 pounds real easily, The only problem was they tended to fold up in a hard accident. These ultrasonic gauges can be found for a couple of hundred bucks on Ebay a little further back in the listings and would be a very good tool in the tec man's tool box.

I loaned mine to a tec guy for an open wheel mod group, he took it to the first race of the year and turned up a bunch of sub par roll cages. His boss asked him to take it home and not bring it back. Why make a rule about how thick the frame should be if you don't enforce it or have no way to check it.

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis Bill, Let me thinks about.NO!!!!!

Wayne

That is what I like about you. You take a situation, consider it for a reasonable period of time and make your Judgment. I said them Echotecs sounded like full blown Midgets and Jeff actually confirmed my observation.

Honest Dad himself

[red70racer]

Originally Posted by DAD Jeff Is there any way possible that you could take 100 pounds off of your car by replacing bolts with titanium, body panels with carbon fiber. I don't think so. the tec people were worried about adding on weight would be dangerous. What they should have worried about was are the frame rails being built out of lighter gauge tubing than any reasonable rule would have required. In the case of Tulsa that would not be a problem, since there was no standard to go by. I would bet an Echotec motor itself out weighs an Esslinger by 50 pounds at least. Every race organizations should have one of these things http://www.ebay.com/itm/Check-Line-M...item3a94b2621a It is an ultrasonic thickness tester. Many years ago several frame manufactures built what they called their light weight chassis. What they did was replace the frame rails with .049" to .060" tubing. Doing this it is possible to loose 50 or 60 pounds real easily, The only problem was they tended to fold up in a hard accident. These ultrasonic gauges can be found for a couple of hundred bucks on Ebay a little further back in the listings and would be a very good tool in the tec man's tool box. I loaned mine to a tec guy for an open wheel mod group, he took it to the first race of the year and turned up a bunch of sub par roll cages. His boss asked him to take it home and not bring it back. Why make a rule about how thick the frame should be if you don't enforce it or have no way to check it. Honest Dad himself

Dad
You are correct sir, there's no way our 1995 Maxim midget could get to the weights they were safely wanting us to be (not having to bolt on that unsafe weight)
We (little people) will never win this deal, I am frustrated they took a good platform and caved to the few elite, changed rules midstream, and could care less about what I think is the core group of this class.
I didn't talk to all in our class, I do know MWR who posted above was frustrated and made me happy to see their legal cars do so well
I'm a little miffed that me and him are the only ones being vocal about it.
I'm a firm believer burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me, I doubt we participate there again, however we still had a lot of fun so I might eat those words

[micro23]

Well the same guy won 2 years in a row.

[Wayne Davis]

I am SICK and TIRED of hearing about UNSAFE bolt on weight...I am really getting pissed about this...Go karters will bolt a 100 pds of weight mostly on the seat (fiberglass) with 1 3/8 grade 8 bolt 2 fender washers and double lock nut them and I have YET to see a piece of weight come off...NO you can not tape the weigh on with masking or electrical tape but you can do like Andy Bradley and his guys did a few years ago when they did not meet weight. They borrowed sheet lead and put it in the seat and when seated and buckled up, that lead is not going any where unless the driver does....I also had lead with 2 bolts and a strap so it could be SAFELY attached and double nutted...

ALL WEIGH must be painted white....this is so the tech inspector can easly look at ALL bolted weight and make sure it is PROPERLY secured...we are not rocket scientist here (well Dad might be) lol...but damn fellows here are the rules....come to Florida...get out of the cold... enjoy our weather... and make your car legal before you make the trip so I don't have to be an A-hole and send you home.

I love these cars both Lightning/Mini sprints and sportsman/division II midgets...we can all race together COMPETITIVELY at half the $$$ of a full blown midget...So from this day forward I will refer to these cars as Division II Midgets...they are the same but a little different in their own unique way!! The fans see midgets or winged midgets and we are all entertainers and those hard working people in the stands are who we need to entertain.