Where's The rule??

MHess · 12/20/10, 7:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonMoore10

thebus79... you make way too much sense!!!!! Some of the people on here need to teach a class sometime and try to get the audience to understand something that seems very simple. Someone once said that research shows that the human mind only absorbs about 20% of what they hear or experience.

OK Don, then what about the leader? What if your car is leading the race and a yellow comes out after you have taken the checker? So your saying that the leader is going to be penalized the win for someone elses yellow?

I understand that in your position saturday night that it did suck. I wouldn't be happy myself but I understand the rule and how it works. I've been on both sides of the fence.

Now your complaint is that it isn't in the rules, correct? Well also in the rules somewhere for Powri, it says that the director of competition has the discretion at any time to rule on matters or something to that nature. So in the end it does come down to a person making a ruling if they have to.

DonMoore10 · 12/20/10, 8:17 PM

I'm still sticking with Baue's simple ending to the race. Once the leader takes the checkered flag, each car is scored for their postion as they cross the finish line. If the checkered is waved and there is a yellow shortly thereafter, the cars involved in the altercation would be scored at the tail of the cars that cross the line. If the altercation takes place before the leader crosses the line, the last lap would not be completed and they would then take a white checker or green, white checker. If the checkered is waved and a wreck happens that would be close to the finish line, the director would make the call to recind the checker and do the last lap again or call it a race. In almost all cases the spin is usually away from the finish line historically.

Regarding the absence of the rule. The Director distinctly told us it was a "rule," nothing else. One of the previous races had three call backs. I would have to review the video before making a judgement if those three call backs were similar to the 4th qualifier.

bloard · 12/20/10, 8:53 PM

Here you go again arguing like my wife, Don. It's really hard to have a logical discussion with someone who keeps changing the issue at hand.

This topic started as a complaint by you that there isn't a rule and that what happened to your car was unjust. Now that it has been established that your car was scored consistently with common practice, tradition, explicit rules of other sanctioning bodies, common sense, and within the rules of POWRi.... the topic changes.

Now it isn't an argument about whether there is or isn't a rule... or whether you were treated unfairly... it's about the rule being a bad rule and not fan-friendly. Totally different argument.

I tend to agree that some fans don't understand the rule, just like they might not understand rules like stopping to avoid a wreck sending you to the rear, or weight rules, or bad slider rules etc. I also agree that you were the victim of some unfortunate circumstances.

But to answer your original point.... You were not treated unfairly in scoring your car this past Saturday. Period.

Now, with that understood, we can debate whether the rule is good or bad for the fans, participants or anyone else... and I have a very open mind on that topic.

DonMoore10 · 12/20/10, 9:41 PM

After reading your last post, I can understand why you and the wife are always arguing. I started the thread and it's my choice to discuss anything related to the topic. Is your wife forcing you to click this topic? Start your own thread if you don't like it.

Jonr · 12/20/10, 9:49 PM

I agree that a new fan would have a hard time understanding the finish as it happened, but a new fan would also have a hard time understanding how a driver can cross under the checker flag and not be declared the winner because something happens after he crosses the finish line. This is where the experienced fan would have to explain the details of the rules. As an experienced fan, this is our responsiblity to help grow the sport.

I have never seen a track take a win away from someone after taking the checkered flag. I have seen two different versions of the finish. 1) Like it was scored by POWRI 2) let the race complete with a rolled up yellow flag pointing to the wreck.

As others have stated, there is a rule in place. It is called the EIRI rule, or the competion directors rule. It reads Except in rare instances that the decision made by the competion director is final.

Lastly, exactly how upset would you be if the roles were reversed and your driver was not declared the winner after taking the checkered flag.

I personally think that this is the racing God's form of Karma. Maybe you need to be a little nicer and the God's will smile on you a little bit more.

DonMoore10 · 12/20/10, 11:14 PM

Not sure how many times I have to say this: The director distinctly stated that it was "the rule". Nothing was mentioned that it was an EIRI rule or anything else.

You guys keep proving the research correct that humans have a 20% retention of what we hear and read.

OnTheHammer · 12/21/10, 12:18 AM

I too feel sorry for Jacob, Not so for DON

SoIllSprinter · 12/21/10, 12:24 AM

I am a person who is in a position where rulings have to be made frequently. The term past precedent is appropriate to this discussion. There are some situations in which rulings are made based on past precedent, commonly known as "what we have done before in this situation". Case law used in court proceedings is a form of past precedent. Mr. Moore is a person to which respect has been earned. His experience and willingness to participate in dirt track racing demands that respect. I disagree with him on his point that every rule must be codified in order to be part of a ruling. I don't think the ruling was made as a "seat of the pants" ruling, but made on what seems to be a common rule instituted consistently by this and other organizations. There is a reason this "common rule" is in place, though I can only speculate it is probably a safety issue. Thank you Mr. Moore for your continued support and participation of midget racing. Without individuals such as yourself willing to sacrifice time, effort, and money this sport could not exist.

sprinter25 · 12/21/10, 12:43 AM

OK, Don, you win. The rule is not in the book.

But lets assume that the race director misspoke. Maybe he meant to say that it's common race scoring procedure to revert all cars that did not take a checkered flag to revert to the last lap scored. So if you were 6th on lap 19 and completed it, and got to 5th on lap 20 but DID NOT TAKE THE CHECKERED FLAG, so you never get the opportunity to finish in 5th.

As far as dumb fans are concerned, it's really very simple. Tell 'em that the leader wins, he took the checkered flag: all others were scored as they were running on the last completed lap. Yeah, it's not what they saw on the track.....but it's not that hard to understand. either. ANd no fans were cheated by this decision.

Did your team and driver get screwed over by a decision? Maybe....but if so, you're not the first!!!!

jim goerge · 12/21/10, 1:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thebus79h

I'm a fan, and a driver occasionally, and if you are in the know, sure, it's "easy" to understand.

Someone sees something on the internet about a racetrack, and they check it out, and then understand nothing. That's what he's talking about. It is overly complicated.

It's simple, every car has to finish the lap for it to be a lap. If it reverts back to 19, then guess what, it it's a green and white at the same time. Why isn't it this way?

So what you are saying is the leader should run more than the 20 laps? Leader took checked flag then yellow came out so the race is over

12/20/10, 8:53 PM	#53 Re: Where's The rule??
bloard Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 66	Here you go again arguing like my wife, Don. It's really hard to have a logical discussion with someone who keeps changing the issue at hand. This topic started as a complaint by you that there isn't a rule and that what happened to your car was unjust. Now that it has been established that your car was scored consistently with common practice, tradition, explicit rules of other sanctioning bodies, common sense, and within the rules of POWRi.... the topic changes. Now it isn't an argument about whether there is or isn't a rule... or whether you were treated unfairly... it's about the rule being a bad rule and not fan-friendly. Totally different argument. I tend to agree that some fans don't understand the rule, just like they might not understand rules like stopping to avoid a wreck sending you to the rear, or weight rules, or bad slider rules etc. I also agree that you were the victim of some unfortunate circumstances. But to answer your original point.... You were not treated unfairly in scoring your car this past Saturday. Period. Now, with that understood, we can debate whether the rule is good or bad for the fans, participants or anyone else... and I have a very open mind on that topic. _________________________________________________ Last edited by bloard; 12/20/10 at 8:54 PM.

12/20/10, 11:14 PM	#56 Re: Where's The rule??
DonMoore10 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,474	Not sure how many times I have to say this: The director distinctly stated that it was "the rule". Nothing was mentioned that it was an EIRI rule or anything else. You guys keep proving the research correct that humans have a 20% retention of what we hear and read. _________________________________________________ Last edited by DonMoore10; 12/20/10 at 11:16 PM.

12/20/10, 8:17 PM	#52 Re: Where's The rule??
DonMoore10 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,474	I'm still sticking with Baue's simple ending to the race. Once the leader takes the checkered flag, each car is scored for their postion as they cross the finish line. If the checkered is waved and there is a yellow shortly thereafter, the cars involved in the altercation would be scored at the tail of the cars that cross the line. If the altercation takes place before the leader crosses the line, the last lap would not be completed and they would then take a white checker or green, white checker. If the checkered is waved and a wreck happens that would be close to the finish line, the director would make the call to recind the checker and do the last lap again or call it a race. In almost all cases the spin is usually away from the finish line historically. Regarding the absence of the rule. The Director distinctly told us it was a "rule," nothing else. One of the previous races had three call backs. I would have to review the video before making a judgement if those three call backs were similar to the 4th qualifier.

12/20/10, 9:49 PM	#55 Re: Where's The rule??
Jonr Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,645	I agree that a new fan would have a hard time understanding the finish as it happened, but a new fan would also have a hard time understanding how a driver can cross under the checker flag and not be declared the winner because something happens after he crosses the finish line. This is where the experienced fan would have to explain the details of the rules. As an experienced fan, this is our responsiblity to help grow the sport. I have never seen a track take a win away from someone after taking the checkered flag. I have seen two different versions of the finish. 1) Like it was scored by POWRI 2) let the race complete with a rolled up yellow flag pointing to the wreck. As others have stated, there is a rule in place. It is called the EIRI rule, or the competion directors rule. It reads Except in rare instances that the decision made by the competion director is final. Lastly, exactly how upset would you be if the roles were reversed and your driver was not declared the winner after taking the checkered flag. I personally think that this is the racing God's form of Karma. Maybe you need to be a little nicer and the God's will smile on you a little bit more.

12/21/10, 12:18 AM	#57 Re: Where's The rule??
OnTheHammer Senior Member Race Count This Year: 21 Race Count Last Year: 35 Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 728	I too feel sorry for Jacob, Not so for DON

12/21/10, 12:24 AM	#58 Re: Where's The rule??
SoIllSprinter Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 185	I am a person who is in a position where rulings have to be made frequently. The term past precedent is appropriate to this discussion. There are some situations in which rulings are made based on past precedent, commonly known as "what we have done before in this situation". Case law used in court proceedings is a form of past precedent. Mr. Moore is a person to which respect has been earned. His experience and willingness to participate in dirt track racing demands that respect. I disagree with him on his point that every rule must be codified in order to be part of a ruling. I don't think the ruling was made as a "seat of the pants" ruling, but made on what seems to be a common rule instituted consistently by this and other organizations. There is a reason this "common rule" is in place, though I can only speculate it is probably a safety issue. Thank you Mr. Moore for your continued support and participation of midget racing. Without individuals such as yourself willing to sacrifice time, effort, and money this sport could not exist.

12/21/10, 12:43 AM	#59 Re: Where's The rule??
sprinter25 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 547	OK, Don, you win. The rule is not in the book. But lets assume that the race director misspoke. Maybe he meant to say that it's common race scoring procedure to revert all cars that did not take a checkered flag to revert to the last lap scored. So if you were 6th on lap 19 and completed it, and got to 5th on lap 20 but DID NOT TAKE THE CHECKERED FLAG, so you never get the opportunity to finish in 5th. As far as dumb fans are concerned, it's really very simple. Tell 'em that the leader wins, he took the checkered flag: all others were scored as they were running on the last completed lap. Yeah, it's not what they saw on the track.....but it's not that hard to understand. either. ANd no fans were cheated by this decision. Did your team and driver get screwed over by a decision? Maybe....but if so, you're not the first!!!!