[DonMoore10]

Transponders were handed out at the sign in desk. Thanks. A transponder has nothing to do with issue.

[bloard]

Sorry. When I asked for the written rule you rely on that says you finished 5th, your reply was "Electronic Transponders." Now I can see that you must have been replying to another poster instead of offering a rule to support your position.

My mistake. I make those.

[The Texan]

If that is "The Rule", it is horrible and someone needs to come up with something a little more fair.

What if, car B is running 2nd and passes car A to become the leader on lap 20, and then car B takes the checkered flag. But, the red is thrown immediately after car B takes the checkers, but before car A (who was the leader after lap 19) takes the checkers. So, what happens now? If you determine car B the winner because he took the checkers, but go back to lap 19 to determine the finishing order of the rest of the field, car A was the leader after lap 19. So, do car A and car B tie for the win?

It is stupid to me to think that a lap in the race is just omitted for certain cars, but counts for others. Either take all cars back a lap and run the 20th lap again, or use video to determine positions when the red/yellow came out. I mean, a car in the top 5 could have spun on his own between the 19th and 20th lap, kept going, but fell all the way to 14th place, but still be awarded a top 5 and a transfer spot because of this stupid "rule".

[bloard]

Again, I don't even know if this is how it went down, but I'd like to hear opinions on how to score this race with the following rules in place. ( I have really bad photoshop abilities, btw)

A. A race will be considered complete when the checkered flag has been displayed or whenever the scheduled distance is finished, whichever occurs first.

B. Yellow Flag indicates CAUTION, slow down and maintain your position.

And keep in mind that without scoring loops, the only point at which cars are scored is at the start finish line. (You can't accurately determine who passed who out of turn 2 etc.)

See Figure 1 (dm1). The Checkered Flag is displayed to the leader on the last lap as he crosses the start/finish line.


Then,

See Figure 2 (dm2). Car #4 Spins in turn 3. Yellow comes out. How do we decide who finished ahead of who in the #5 and #6 cars?

As it pertains to the completion of the race and naming a winner, do we...

A. Ignore the fact that Car Number 1 completed the full number of laps and took the checkered flag as the leader and have a green/white/checkered because every car on the track didn't complete the final lap before the caution and make the leader go out and do it again?

B. Decided that the race has concluded because the leader took the checkered?

The rule as well as common sense says we do B. Race over.


If we choose B and say all laps have been completed, how do we decide which car between cars #5 and #6 got 4th place when the race is only being scored and judged from the start/finish line by either human scorers or transponders?

A. Let cars #5 & #6 ignore the yellow flag condition and race back to the line?

B. Start asking people's opinions on whether car #6 actually completed his pass of car #5 at some point on the track before the yellow came out?

C. Revert to the previous lap scoring between these two cars?

My point is that there isn't really a good answer. In NASCAR you can use scoring loops and option B works. But with races scored just at the start finish line option B simply doesn't work. That's why in almost all series on dirt we revert to the last completed lap for scoring any time a yellow comes out. You just can't judge who was ahead of who coming out of turn 2 or who had a nose in front on the back stretch.

Out of all of the options in this scenario, it seems like a fairly scored race according to the published rules.

But I'm sure there are other opinions on how to score this race.


dm1.gif

dm2.gif

[DonMoore10]

There's a very simple answer to all of this that everyone can understand, especially the forgotten fans in the stands who are the most important people at any race track as far as understanding the dynamics of the race program.

If the race is supposed to be 20 laps, there must be 20 green flag laps. If cars are spinning, there are other rules to take care of them such as the two spin rule. If the race is scheduled for 20 laps, give the fans 20 laps of green flag racing. They paid for it, they deserve it.

[Kirk Spridgeon]

I've seen this happen a lot, not just this year, but in many years before.

Every sanctioning group I've seen scores the race complete once the leader takes the checkered. From there, if a yellow comes out for any reason (usually they seem to try to let every car cross if the track is not blocked or there's a dangerous situation), the rest of the field who DID NOT cross under a checkered flag is scored from the last completed lap.

While this apparently has affected Don for the first time, I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times in the 2010 season on back.

The only fair way to combat this is to have multiple transponder loops around the track, so you can score off the last transponder line crossed. But again, this could leave someone out in the cold, such as in a slidejob/crossover situation on the last lap.

Once a leader takes the checkered, it is unfair to make him race any more. He has completed the required distance. If he were to spin, or break, or even flip in turn-one after the checkered, he is still the winner if he crossed the checkered first...

[RGardner]

This same thing happened to Danny sheridan at chilibowl last year onhis preliminary night b main made a pass Fo the transfer beat the guy to the line but some one running 10 flipped went back to the last lap and he was scored 5th. Happens alot not a fan of this but it's not something new.
Posted via Mobile Device

[short track scott]

Reverting back to the previous lap is how it has to be when it comes to checkered flag because ANY driver who responds to the yellow flag and is passed gets screwed for obeying the yellow.

The race has to be over when the leader takes the checkered flag. Never take points off the scoreboard, so to speak. The yellow should be waved with the checker at the point of caution on the track, and it should be clear that the race has been declared over in that action.

I really feel bad for Jacob and Don on this one because Jacob got there in time, if the yellow hadn't come out. But it did. On an indoor track it is crucial to get cars slowed down NOW! Sending the field past the checkers into the corner where there has been any incident (again, I know it sucks but) far outweighs any gain for any single car. Again, the reason is safety, not only for your car but the entire field.

As for the green-white-checkered races earlier, if the leader did not go under the checkered flag, there can be a restart. Or two. Or three.

The key is that the race is over, and stays over, once the winner goes under the checkered flag. Yes, it blows for any car advancing positions on the track in the last lap, but it isn't about stealing a spot or screwing a guy out of a spot, its about safety.

I really don't get that Don has as much a problem with all of that as he was told it was a rule and cannot find such a rule in the PowrI rules. That kind of blows too.

But if I were 5th and got passed on the last lap coming to a caution I'd make Don's rant look like a Gregorian chant by comparison.
Posted via Mobile Device

[bloard]

If the race is supposed to be 20 laps, there must be 20 green flag laps. If cars are spinning, there are other rules to take care of them such as the two spin rule. If the race is scheduled for 20 laps, give the fans 20 laps of green flag racing. They paid for it, they deserve it.

Don, the fans did get 20 laps. When the leader took the checkered, 20 laps had been completed. End of race.

This has nothing to do with the fans getting cheated.... it has to do with you feeling like you got cheated. Let's keep our victims straight here.

[DonMoore10]

Originally Posted by short track scott I really don't get that Don has as much a problem with all of that as he was told it was a rule and cannot find such a rule in the PowrI rules. That kind of blows too.Posted via Mobile Device

You are the first person in this thread to understand the point of this discussion. I have signed dozens of music contracts that spell out terms of agreement. I hope that those who are parents that have issues with the schooling of their children can expect rules that govern how the daily activites will be administered. We all must abide by the traffic laws that govern how we drive the highways and byways of this country. Businesses have rules also. Terms are spelled out on many of the receipts that we sign when we purchase an item. How much integrety does an organization/business have? I recently returned an expensive item that didn't work. It was beyond the 60 day agreement that I signed with the company. We were able to work out a deal that was beneficial to both of us.

It sounds to me like a lot more of "this is the way it's always been done" with no basis for a decision. "This is the way it's always been done" doesn't fly with me but apparently the racing community has been operating like that for so long that most people don't know any better. In my many years of teaching, the "this is the ways it's always been done" has no defense. If you want to run a program with some integrety and trust you need to operate your business/org accordingly. Hidden rules, "gotcha deals" and the like, lead to a distrustful community. Operating a program/business by the seat of your pants with no basis is going to lead to a lot of future problems. I really don't care how you want to administer the final laps of a midget race, but I'd like to know it advance how you're going to do it. No different than knowing in advance what the speed limit is going down the highway. I'm not interested in playing gotcha with a highway patrol person making up the rules as they go along. If there is a rule that is quoted for a midget race and the organization has any kind of integrety, it will be in the rule book that governs the organization or will be clearly explained either on a handout sheet of paper, posted on a bulletin board or explained in a driver's meeting.