[bloard]

I'm guessing that the ruling was a variant or at least grounded on the following rule...

F. If a race is stopped by a red flag after the Leader and/or other cars have taken the checkered, those taking the checkered prior to the showing of the red flag will be scored according to how they crossed the start-finish line. Cars passing the start-finish line after the showing of the red flag will be scored according to their last scored lap (green). Those involved in the accident will be scored at the rear of the field.

I was watching on PPV and was not privy to observe what flags were displayed when.. although I think it is doubtful given Don's description that a red flag actually was displayed before the 10 car crossed the line.

I realize that rule is for a red flag, and not a yellow. But let's add this rule into the mix...

No passing will be permitted under the yellow flag unless permission is given to the Starter after consultation with the Director of Competition.

Now again... I didn't actually witness what happened because I was probably grabbing a cold one from the fridge in the comfort of a 72 degree living room as a group of us watched on the big screen, but....

If the leader took the checkered flag, then a green, white checkered finish isn't going to happen. The checkered is the conclusion of the race.

A. A race will be considered complete when the checkered flag has been displayed or whenever the scheduled distance is finished, whichever occurs first.

So, if the race was completed in the sense that there would be no more laps run because the leader had taken the checkered, then the only question is how are the cars behind the leader scored?

If, as in a normal race, the event proceeds under green flag conditions after the checkered has been displayed to the leader then obviously everyone would be scored where they finished when each car took the checkered.

But when there's a yellow displayed after the leader takes the checkered, what do you do?

A. Everyone races back to the finish and is scored where they take the checkered? But what about that yellow flag and the rule saying you slow down and don't pass under yellow?

or

B. You revert to the last scored lap because the leader has taken the checkered and the race is over... and the track doesn't have 20 scoring loops to determine whether a pass was made before or after the caution was displayed.

Again... I'm not defending the ruling because I didn't see it and don't even know whether they yellow was displayed after the leader took the checkered.

[DonMoore10]

We were told by Jim Siner that it was "THE RULE" and he walked away from us at that point. I appealed to Kenny Brown and he said he wasn't watching the event.

If someone has video, I would like to see it posted, although that still does not validate a decision on a "RULE" that doesn't exist.

[bloard]

I agree Don, that there's not a specific rule that says...

If a yellow is displayed after the checkered has been shown to the leader, then all cars that finish under the yellow will be scored according to their position on the prior lap.

Just like there's not a rule that says...

If there is an accident on the track after the checkered flag has been displayed to the leader, then get on the gas and race your way back to the checkered and try not to kill anyone in the meantime.

If the official said, "that is the RulING" instead of that is the "Rule", would you not be making this argument at all?

I'm not wanting to argue with you because it sounds like a valid beef you may have, but I'm just wanting to play a little devil's advocate and ask...

What is the alternative ruling you are advocating... IF there was a caution displayed after the leader took the checkered but before the 10 car crossed the line?

Just asking.

[MHess]

Don, I was there in the stands. It was scored exactly how it should have been scored. As Chad explained and bloard said, Once the leader crosses the finish line the race is over. As bloard said, you can't have cars racing back to the start finish line but you can't take the win away from the leader. I commented to the person next to me that it should be scored from the previous lap. They used transponders and I believe that the caution button was hit after the 2nd or 3rd place car crossed the line. I've been on both sides of this. benefitted from it and it has cost me positions also but in this instance, it was handled the way it should have been handled by any good sanctioning organization.

[Charles Nungester]

Whats funny about it to me is several times, Earlier in the program they reverted back to the previous lap and then ran a green*white checker. One race even took three attempts to complete as there were incidents in the first two.

Oh Vey.

after reading further explanations. I have a better understanding. However it seems a little weird.

Chuck

Originally Posted by DonMoore10 I've just returned home from a 1000 mile round trip after racing at the Southern Illinois Center in DuQuoin, IL for the "Battle at the Center" midget race held Saturday evening. For those that were not there or who did not watch the event on PPV, I had 20 year old Jacob Wilson (BTW, not a rent a ride), a sensational Silver Crown and sprint car pavement driver behind the wheel of my #10. (If you haven't watch him drive his family Silver Crown car, you are in for a treat!) In order to make the feature event, drivers needed to finish in the top five of the four qualifier events. We were in the fourth qualifier. We were "scored" sixth by the Powri officials, and thus, did not make the main event..... or did we????? Now, I had no intention of coming on this message board and discussing what you are about to read, but after reading several fans PUBLIC comments on IOW about what took place with my car and driver (and several e-mails that I received) I'm going to explain how this all went down and why you did not see my car in the 50 lap feature. As explained before, we were in the fourth qualifying "20 lap" race. Five would transfer to the feature. After the green flag was given, Wilson came from dead last to sixth place near the end of the race, a feat that didn't happen too many times that evening. Here is where the controversy begins and I will try to stay as factual as possible. On the last lap ( or supposedly the last lap.. please read on) Wilson passed one of the top five cars and clearly crossed the finish line/checkered flag in front of several thousand people and worldwide PPV video witnessing in fifth place. Now apparently there was an incident somewhere else on the track as the top six cars went across the finish line and too the checkered flag. I left the stands and was congratulated for making the race several times by various people as I made my way back to the pit area. Then I heard the "offical finish" over the public address system by Powri announcer Jim Childers that we "offically" finished in sixth place. Several members of my pit crew made an immediate appeal to Jim Siner, co owner of Powri/Director of Competition as to why were scored sixth and not fifth. I joined the discussion as the conversation continued. We were told that there is a "rule" that says that because of the incident that took place somewhere else on the track, that the "official scoring" reverts back to the previous lap. Siner ended the discussion and left the area and we all looked at each other and said... WHAT??? In all my years as a race fan and car owner I have NEVER heard or witnessed anything like this at a racing event. You the fans that paid money to see a 20 lap race got 19 laps instead even though the entire world that was viewing saw it with their own eyes. The 20th lap never happened according to the officials. Poff... gone just like that. Never happened. Genie in a bottle. I have read, reread and REREAD the Powri rule book posted on their web site www.powri.com and can't find the rule. So my question again is: Where's the rule??

[DonMoore10]

A lot of spinning (opinions about how it should be done). Spin all you want but there is NO RULE in the published rules as we were told.

[bloard]

Where is the written and published rule that says the 10 car should have been scored in 5th?

If you think you finished 5th according to the published rules... Show me the rule.

[micro94]

I wasnt there and didnt get to watch it on ppv even though I paid for it but this is my opinion.If there was a yellow which there obviously is after every race but before dons car passed the finish line there should have been a yellow whit checkered.Just curious who was the yellow for and who did jacob pass that ended up getting the 5th apot.Was the cars that caused the yellow running at the back?Ill wait for more info before I put anything else on here but ift sounds like if I where Don Id be pissed to.

[DonMoore10]

Electronic transponders.

---------- Post added at 12:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12 PM ----------

Originally Posted by micro94 I wasnt there and didnt get to watch it on ppv even though I paid for it but this is my opinion.If there was a yellow which there obviously is after every race but before dons car passed the finish line there should have been a yellow whit checkered.Just curious who was the yellow for and who did jacob pass that ended up getting the 5th apot.Was the cars that caused the yellow running at the back?Ill wait for more info before I put anything else on here but ift sounds like if I where Don Id be pissed to.

There were no mishaps in the top six of the field on the "phantom last lap/20th lap that apparently didn't exist according to Siner. The skirmish was somewhere in the back somewhere. But it really makes no difference. As Baue pointed out, this is a no brainer. You either score the cars as they take the checkered flag and call it a race on the 20th lap.. or.. you do the last lap or the last two laps over again. THIS WAS DONE THREE TIMES IN ONE OF THE PREVIOUS QUALIFIERS. REGARDLESS, if the race is published as a 20 lap race and I pay my entry fee/pit passes, then I expect to race my entitled 20 laps. Furthermore, as a spectator, you are entitled to the show that is published/announced which was 20 laps of racing. How bout if every race for the evening ended that way? There were around a dozen races presented.... yeah.. have em all end with a finish like the qualifier. IDK... maybe Casey Shuman really didnt' win. You would have every fan in the building demanding a refund immediately. If the racers in the pits didn't understand the ruling, which IMO from the reaction that I witnessed, not many if any did, then HITH do you expect the paying fans to understand it. You are actually telling the fans to erase what they saw with their own eyes. Yeah, forget what you saw... it really happened this way and you don't get to see the last lap.

[bloard]

I just did a "Find" search through the official rules for instances of the word transponder, transponders, Transponder, Transponders, Transpond, transpon as well as electron, electronic, electr and the only instance I can find in the rules has to do with electronic ignitions. I can't find the word transponder anywhere.

So... the transponders aren't in the official published rules. Are they irrelevant? Do we ignore them? Not use them? Go by the scorers notes when they confict with the transponders?

How in the world can we possibly score a race with transponders when they aren't even mentioned in the rules?

Maybe, Common Sense? Interpretation?

If the rules are the rules are the rules... and that's the only thing we look to when judging the outcome of a race... then your electronic transponder don't mean diddly squat.

Here's your problem Don.... and I truly don't mean anything personal because I enjoy an honest and straightforward debate with you here. You start out with a very honest beef that a lot of people are sympathetic to... then when contrary opinions are presented you start clinging to illogical arguments that defy common sense and real world experience. That's when you lose us. Stop arguing like my wife by clinging to an illogical argument just to keep from possibly being wrong one time in your life.

The bigger question here is whether this is an appropriate way to have scored the race under the circumstances. With regard to that question, you have my sympathy and understanding regarding how things worked out for you. By simply yelling Rule, Rule, Rule.... you lose me.

In the previous qualifiers where they went green white checkered - did the leader actually take the checkered flag prior to the yellow being displayed? I don't know. I'm just asking.