[Hawker]

Originally Posted by Need For Speed LMAO! The supposed experts have it figured out! According to the experts in this thread, the way to have great racing is to throw more and more money at/into the engines, chassis, tires, etc. Cause you know, racers will be racers.......... So, I think it's about time to get the midget engines making a little over 600HP, and costing $75,000 each. I'm sure with those improvements, the pits will be overflowing, and the stands will be packed....I mean with all of the new track records, and side by side racing that the added expense and wicked speed will create, how can the owners and fans not love it! Sadly, the experts missed my point about the VWs. When everyone was running them, those engines were costly, the midgets were plenty fast, and the racing was plenty good. Currently the costs to have essentially the same thing (a midget ready to race) have multiplied by what factor?...2x, 3x, 4x, more? Has the car count multiplied by the same amount, what about the quality of the racing, or the fans in the stands, how about the number of races, at what amount have those items multiplied? Pavement only midgets and sprints have created the same problems. Did the guys who once had the money to spend on the latest/greatest/fastest equipment, suddenly decide to go fishing, and leave the race car in the garage???...or did reality finally sink in? BTW, when the 1970's USAC sprint car had a 302ci engine in it, I doubt anyone was telling guys like Pancho Carter and Sheldon Kinser that if they had another 100 cubes under the hood, they wouldn't be so damn slow, and the racing would be better. I'm sure that the 410ci engine, and the amount of money that the top owners spend today on engines, tires, shocks, testing, the haulers, etc, have cured all of the issues that plauged the '70s.

There sure seemed to be more fans in the stands, cars in the pits and even sponsors on the cars when they ran those tiny little engines...

[jdull99]

Not to mention those tiny little tires they used to run too...Maybe there should be a mandatory History lesson (as I have heard an important reason to study is to avoid making mistakes in the present) for all the movers and shakers in SC&Ms?

Jason Dull
815 494 6002
jdull99@hotmail.com
jasondull.com (For all the Racing News)

---------- Post added at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 AM ----------

Originally Posted by KMS2683 I wrote a post about the exact subject (weekly midget racing) about a month ago and it was dismissed as I would have suspected. I agree with Leaders Edge in that engine costs are far from the main issue affecting midget racing It seems that in midget racing (and all racing for that matter) everyone wants the sport to be governed by socialism. The people who can no longer afford to race feel that sanctioning bodies should control or implement measures that would "lower costs", in essence take from the rich and give to the poor. What people forget is racing is a privledge, not an entitlement.

Not socialist, but other than the POWRI (Sat's race the last outdoor dirt one in area and on small track) and GC (high dollar pay-out, multi day show) examples, there is really not much saying that the product most others offer is working. Common sense really...

[Hawker]

Originally Posted by jdull99 Not to mention those tiny little tires they used to run too...Maybe there should be a mandatory History lesson (as I have heard an important reason to study is to avoid making mistakes in the present) for all the movers and shakers in SC&Ms? Jason Dull 815 494 6002 jdull99@hotmail.com jasondull.com (For all the Racing News)[COLOR="Black"]

The sad part is that they are racing for about as much now, as they were then. With a few exceptions of course...

Also, look at the car counts for events such as Belleville from 30 years ago. I'm not advocating going back to them, but those VW engines sure got around Belleville pretty good, sang a pretty tune and were pretty cheap to build.

In my 40+ years around open wheel racing, I have never been much of a fan of spec engines, or even very many rules. But as I've aged, I've also grown wiser and now realize that it was that mentality that is slowly killing the sport. Sprint Car and Midget racing is as "grassroots" as you can get, it was a sport where every full service gas station had a race car in one of their two bays, you built it and you raced it. But in the search for that elusive "next level", sometimes by people who don't know too much about the history of this sport, well "the sport" has lost it's way. The "movers and shakers" have lost sight in the effort to be the only ones to actually make money in this sport.

I went to the presentation at the Knoxville Nationals with Donny Schatz, Ron Shaver where they introduced to the world the LS spec V8 they had been "toying" with. All of the major engine builders and parts manufacturers were present. You would have thought that it was the end of the world the way the builders and parts suppliers reacted. I couldn't believe it. An engine that can be purchased from Shaver for $20k, makes 750hp, 50ft lbs less torque than the best 410, will run for 30 nights and then only costs $3k to refresh and you would have thought that Mr Shaver was the Anti-Christ... That same engine passed 12 $40+k engines that Friday night...

I have spoke with numerous drivers who said they would buy two engines today if someone would allow the engine to run with existing sanctions or start a new series with it. One of those drivers just purchased a new $42k ASCS 360 engine.........

I'll now suit up in my nomex suit, step off my soapbox and await what it sure to be blast of flame throwers...

BTW, if anyone is interested in seeing the info and video of the presentation on this LS engine, I still have it up on my site here http://www.openwheel.org/ls.html

[okcfan12]

Just scanning over this thread, I see scarce mention of the new ASCS2 EcoTec Midgets. It's kind of suprising really.

Folks on here talkin about 10k midget motors like they don't exist - hey hold up!! lol. I don't know all the engine specifics, I just cover the shows - but I think the new EcoTec Midgets are around $11,000. I think. They were debuted at the Tulsa Shootout. We have run 5 shows since - twice at both Creek County Speedway (sapulpa, OK) and Lawton Speedway (Lawton, OK).

We get around 10, but this past weekend at the Cowtown Sprint Nationals it was VERY good racing. We had 11 cars - In heat, qualifer, and A Main - very good side by side racing - almost constantly for many laps.

But most importantly - they don't give up as much as I thought they would to full blown midgets. Of course, I have never seen a midget race at Belleville or another big track lol.

What I mean is - look at ASCS 360 sprints or such - and then look at some of the 305's or E Sprints or whatever and it's a HUGE difference - the slower ones can hardly get sideways - in some places of course. I saw them in Texas they were terrible - then I saw URSS in Kansas and it was pretty good. I'm just saying whereas ASCS2 EcoTec Midget motors are like 20-25% the cost of the USAC stuff - the racing is still extremely good. It's more like the difference between 410 and 360 sprints - as opposed to 360 sprints vs. lower classes.

The ASCS2 Midgets run again November 11 and 12 at the November Sprint Shootout at Cowtown Speedway. And they will run the Tulsa Shootout again this year. Speaking of the Tulsa Shootout. How good will that race be this year? I ask that rhetorically lol. For those who cant make the chili bowl or would desire the coolest way IN THE WORLD to spend New Year's Eve - should plan to go to the Tulsa Shootout.

No more Karts. No more Quads. Same micro classes as last few years - except with 2 additions - really good additions lol - Non Wing 1200cc mini sprints and Outlaw 600's NON WING. I could go on but I think it is all on the Tulsa Shootout website.

It will be a 2 day show this year. Friday December 31 and Saturday January 1.

[LEADERS EDGE]

Like I said...If I am wrong I am wrong. I am no czar in anyway nor is it a case where I run a series. Believe it or not....I do have much respect for any track owner or series that races anything. So I in no way have disrespect for anyone who races what and where they want to race.

All I can say is this: We have owned and have taken care of many, many different race cars. From the 50's right up to today. The doors of our various shops have literally seen more than a 1000 different motors come through them and a few hundred different cars. My dad still restores Offy's and Four Cam Fords on a daily basis. I have more than just a passing knowledge of many of these motors...especially midget motors. I am no expert by any means, but I have plenty of experience with them.

As much as I love the past and wish the cars still looked that way and the drivers had open-faced helmets and such.....we can't go backwards. I have absolutely no problem with motors and cars evolving, but they must evolve in such a way that it does not diminish the product offered and it does not eliminate the various competitors we have racing today.

To this point; I haven't yet seen a product that offers the performance needed and the price point desired. I believe it can happen, but it's not here yet. I would personally like to see something come along that can be integrated with what is available now and evolve into the dominating platform.

I always contend that the past must be used as a guide for the future, but you can never compare yourself to your past because it will hinder future success.

That was then and this is today and we do not live in the same society we lived in 10 years ago let alone 40 years ago. There were many other factors that contributed to the car counts and crowds of days gone by and very little of it had to do with the cost of the cars themselves.

I could go on and on but I'm boring myself so I am sure this is boring others. It's just not as simple as it looks.

---------- Post added at 10:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 AM ----------

The Eco-Tek deal is interesting because the ASCS is involved. They have recently made some changes that I feel improved the product and it could turn into something. I feel the price point is high at 11,000, but that's me.

I really think though the strength of that program is the organization and if they put together a program like the ASCS Sprint cars, then it will be successful. The motor to me isn't the strongest selling point to that series.

[Jonr]

How long can midget racing continue down its current path? How long before midget racing has the same car count and same schedule as a silver crown car?

There have been some decent car counts this fall, but I remeber reading about some horrific car counts this summer.

This thread did illustrate an interesting thought pattern which is all midget rules should be the same. I completely disagree. Very view people can afford to run a USAC budget. Just like very few people can afford a WOO budget. However, there are a ton of people who could afford a $25,000 midget just like there are a ton of people who can afford a 360 or 305.

I also maintain that local tracks having a "budget" midget class would actually help the national touring series. It would build interest in the class, it would be a feeder system, it would give new owners a chance to learn before making the big commitment.

As was pointed oiut, most fans would prefer a 410 sprint car to 305, and most fans wouuld prefer a USAC midget to a "budget midget" However, would they prefer a "budget midget to a 305. Would they prefer a "budget midget" to another modified race?

[KMS2683]

Couple more of my thoughts and I will leave this subject alone.

The demise of midget racing is more of a preceived problem rather than reality. Given that midgets are a touring series and have no local weekly racers to drawn upon for their shows and yet they get 25 to 35 midgets in this economy is quite amazing. The WOO would only get about 15 cars if not for the local weekly racers to draw from for their shows.

If tommorrow a $8,000 midget engine was available that produced 320 HP and did not need to be rebuilt for at least two seasons there still would be only a marginal increase in midget car counts over the next couple of years. Why, because ENGINES are not the MAIN issue and things such as tires, travel (because no weekly programs) testing, etc.

Society and more importantly what people spend their entertainment dollar on has had far more of an impact on racing (as yes midget racing) than any racing expense. Midget racing has not kept up with the changes in peoples entertainment desires. Look at the extremem sports, they are furishing even in this economy. There are packed houses at monster truck shows. Lessing the midget product by deceasing horsepower and speed is only going to hurt the sport. If horsepower and speed where not important to the average fan and just good hard racing was all that mattered, then the average local weekly racing track would run only bombers/hobby stocks/factory stock cars. Same with other professional sports, if simply just good close football games where all that mattered then there would be no need to have games beyond high school. But, people want to see cars with high horsepower and high speeds and they want to see the best athletes.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know enough to realize engines costs alone are not going to solve the issue.

[Fontana180]

My car is in the garage and Yes, I did buy a boat. Have been taking the family fishing. Just tired of the cheating and cry babies and spending money after money.. At least I can put some food on the table this way. Not counting better quality of family time!

Has anyone ever developed a purpose built 205 c.i. Midget engine based on one bank of a 410 V-8? It would seem that would be an easy way to make enough power, use readily available parts to make a cheaper engine. All that I would be seeing to be made new would be a block and crank (narrowed rod journals). The rest of the bolt on parts could be the same and use a standard head like an ASCS 360 head. I would think the engine would make plenty of power and torque and last forever!

Joe

[Dick Monahan]

Except that I think it was half a 350 block, you just described the SESCO of the early 70s.