Leaking Diff????

wobbler · 11/4/08, 8:02 PM

I have an older style Winters midget diff with 2 side hats and an integral coupler. My problem is that even replacing the front bearing and seal it still leaks through the front somewhere and fills the torque tube with oil. :confused: although it doesn't apear to be doing much harm I would like to be able to not have to keep cleaning up the mess all the time.

Does anybody have any suggestions on where it might be leaking and/ or how to fix it?

That is of course other than replacing the whole thing. :wink

TQ29m · 11/4/08, 10:17 PM

It's probably leaking past the 2 O'rings on the internal coupler. I have a fix for that, but most folks just clean the coupler good, and the internal shaft, and silicone the heck out of it, then, when you put the drive shaft in, silicone it, and make sure you use a spring in the yoke. I've been experimenting with some machine work and adding another seal, I've run it this summer, so as soon as I get it apart, I'll know for sure if it will hold up, and how much trouble it is to do. Bob

11/4/08, 11:18 PM

Contact my father his name is Jim Sweat, he can make you what you will more than likely need to fix the problem. Ph# 765-661-6597, home 765-998-6120

Jeff

LEADERS EDGE · 11/5/08, 1:00 PM

Is the bearing loose to the point where it slips in and out by hand or with very little effort? If it is, then it is probably leaking past the outside of the bearing. The bearing will move side-to-side and up and down enough to let the oil leak past.

It could be the O-Rings as Bob suggested they could be cut or hard. You should notice that quickly upon inspection.

The internal coupler system is good about not leaking if the seal is good, the o-rings are good and the bearing fits tight in the bore. Avoid using silicone unless you have to in a last minute fix. As far as a spring in the yoke goes, you don't have to use one to keep it from leaking unless you are using the driveshaft to hold the lower shaft and coupler/bearing in place. That is the wrong application for that as the spring should only be used to control the float of the shaft and not actually hold a great deal of pressure on the lower shaft/driveline itself.
The torque tube has a recess built into it to clear the bearing, but it also helps keep it from moving forward, but has enough clearance to allow it to "walk" a little in the bore.

If the bearing is loose, we have built sleeves similar to the ones in the sprint car rears to tighten the bearing up in the bore. Staking or siliconing the bearing in place is a temp. fix at best and usually just a futile waste of time.

Often on a Winters midget rear;the flange bolt holes(on the face) will break through when they are drilled and tapped(usually in the 11 o'clock or the 1 o'clock position) and leak. It is possible that it is leaking past the flange and into the tube, but usually it covers the outside of the rear. That is fixed with a set screw with dope or silicone in the bore.

email me if you wish leadersedge@earthlink.net

Good Luck,

Scott Baue

TQ29m · 11/5/08, 2:23 PM

Scotty, that's what I was refering to, was to keep the drive shaft from floating forward, and allowing the silicone to lose it's seal. Winters needs to look at either having an insert cast in the housing, or offer one that can be installed if it does become loose. Darn good rear end, just needs some mods, and that seems to be the most frequent area of problems. The silicone has lasted me this season, but something better is on the horizon, silicone, and oil/gear lube/mineral spirits, not good partners. Bob

wobbler · 11/6/08, 10:12 AM

Thanks very much for the feedback guys.

The o-rings in the coupler were replaced at the same time as the bearings and seals so only have 6 or so shows on them. I can't really see them being the problem unless the shaft and coupler were worn, which I don't think is the case?

I have been caught by the torque tube bolts/ studs not being sealed before and always ensure that they are sealed with liquid thread sealer.

I think Scott may have identified the problem as I suspect that the bearing is not quite a tight enough fix as it is fairly easy to remove with out too much force. I would have thought that the coupler seal would have done a better job but then I guess when at operating temperature the oil does become a lot thinner and I guess the housing expands too equalling the regular mess that I have.

Seems strange that winters and others make the shims for the sprintcar diffs but not the midget diffs. I guess there isn't the demand for them.

Thanks again all, I guess I now need to find a decent local machine shop.

TQ29m · 11/6/08, 2:48 PM

Wobbler, last time it happened to me, my 3rd center section, I measured the bore, minus the bearing, and added a couple thou, and went to my local, old time auto supply store, and bought a length of feeler stock, I think they are 12 in long, set it in the bore, cut it to length, got everything ready, warmed up the housing, and installed the bearing, still holding. Might be worth a shot, if that's what you find. Bob

wobbler · 11/6/08, 9:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TQ29m

Wobbler, last time it happened to me, my 3rd center section, I measured the bore, minus the bearing, and added a couple thou, and went to my local, old time auto supply store, and bought a length of feeler stock, I think they are 12 in long, set it in the bore, cut it to length, got everything ready, warmed up the housing, and installed the bearing, still holding. Might be worth a shot, if that's what you find. Bob

Actually I had thought of getting a sheet of brass shim material and doing a similar thing but wasn't too sure if it would be successful or not. I think I will give it a try when I am ready to put it back together. It has got to be a lot cheaper option then getting it machined and a shim made.

Cheers

LEADERS EDGE · 11/7/08, 10:58 AM

It is indeed a cheaper fix, but you have to remember that the hole isn't just bigger, it is stretched. There is nothing saying that it is a uniform size and "round".

Trust me; I get cheap and I understand a simple fix, but there is fixing something right once instead of having to fix it twice.

Have someone find center and open the hole to make it round again and then make a sleeve that gives you about .3 thou crush. Even if you spend $50-$100, consider the time and mess you have to deal with.

RR>LR=LTO · 11/11/08, 9:46 AM

He's right! The lower shaft HAS to be in perfect alignment with the coupler on the opposite end of the bearing. There is a small cup that the lower shaft slides into on the inside of the rear-end. When the track is tacky, you are "wobbling" the bearing around, no pun intended. But, on a tacky track you are still getting good bite. When it gets slicker, that alignment is crutial to the handling of the car. Even that slight little bit of bind internally will make the car unpredictable. Also, don't use Chineese bearings. They are cheap and unfilling, just like their food. Use, NTK, Fafnir, or my personal favorite, ***.

11/5/08, 1:00 PM	#4 Re: Leaking Diff????
LEADERS EDGE Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 980	Is the bearing loose to the point where it slips in and out by hand or with very little effort? If it is, then it is probably leaking past the outside of the bearing. The bearing will move side-to-side and up and down enough to let the oil leak past. It could be the O-Rings as Bob suggested they could be cut or hard. You should notice that quickly upon inspection. The internal coupler system is good about not leaking if the seal is good, the o-rings are good and the bearing fits tight in the bore. Avoid using silicone unless you have to in a last minute fix. As far as a spring in the yoke goes, you don't have to use one to keep it from leaking unless you are using the driveshaft to hold the lower shaft and coupler/bearing in place. That is the wrong application for that as the spring should only be used to control the float of the shaft and not actually hold a great deal of pressure on the lower shaft/driveline itself. The torque tube has a recess built into it to clear the bearing, but it also helps keep it from moving forward, but has enough clearance to allow it to "walk" a little in the bore. If the bearing is loose, we have built sleeves similar to the ones in the sprint car rears to tighten the bearing up in the bore. Staking or siliconing the bearing in place is a temp. fix at best and usually just a futile waste of time. Often on a Winters midget rear;the flange bolt holes(on the face) will break through when they are drilled and tapped(usually in the 11 o'clock or the 1 o'clock position) and leak. It is possible that it is leaking past the flange and into the tube, but usually it covers the outside of the rear. That is fixed with a set screw with dope or silicone in the bore. email me if you wish leadersedge@earthlink.net Good Luck, Scott Baue _________________________________________________ Last edited by LEADERS EDGE; 11/5/08 at 1:10 PM.

11/11/08, 9:46 AM	#10 Re: Leaking Diff????
RR>LR=LTO Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 112	He's right! The lower shaft HAS to be in perfect alignment with the coupler on the opposite end of the bearing. There is a small cup that the lower shaft slides into on the inside of the rear-end. When the track is tacky, you are "wobbling" the bearing around, no pun intended. But, on a tacky track you are still getting good bite. When it gets slicker, that alignment is crutial to the handling of the car. Even that slight little bit of bind internally will make the car unpredictable. Also, don't use Chineese bearings. They are cheap and unfilling, just like their food. Use, NTK, Fafnir, or my personal favorite, ***. __________________ People will more readily accept your ideas if you tell them Benjamin Franklin said it first! :thumb When arguing with a woman: You must first throw out logic and common sense. Benjamin Franklin :headbang

11/4/08, 8:02 PM	#1 Leaking Diff????
wobbler Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 191	I have an older style Winters midget diff with 2 side hats and an integral coupler. My problem is that even replacing the front bearing and seal it still leaks through the front somewhere and fills the torque tube with oil. :confused: although it doesn't apear to be doing much harm I would like to be able to not have to keep cleaning up the mess all the time. Does anybody have any suggestions on where it might be leaking and/ or how to fix it? That is of course other than replacing the whole thing. :wink

11/4/08, 10:17 PM	#2 Re: Leaking Diff????
TQ29m Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,559	It's probably leaking past the 2 O'rings on the internal coupler. I have a fix for that, but most folks just clean the coupler good, and the internal shaft, and silicone the heck out of it, then, when you put the drive shaft in, silicone it, and make sure you use a spring in the yoke. I've been experimenting with some machine work and adding another seal, I've run it this summer, so as soon as I get it apart, I'll know for sure if it will hold up, and how much trouble it is to do. Bob

11/4/08, 11:18 PM	#3 Re: Leaking Diff????
lovindirt Posts: n/a	Contact my father his name is Jim Sweat, he can make you what you will more than likely need to fix the problem. Ph# 765-661-6597, home 765-998-6120 Jeff

11/5/08, 2:23 PM	#5 Re: Leaking Diff????
TQ29m Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,559	Scotty, that's what I was refering to, was to keep the drive shaft from floating forward, and allowing the silicone to lose it's seal. Winters needs to look at either having an insert cast in the housing, or offer one that can be installed if it does become loose. Darn good rear end, just needs some mods, and that seems to be the most frequent area of problems. The silicone has lasted me this season, but something better is on the horizon, silicone, and oil/gear lube/mineral spirits, not good partners. Bob

11/6/08, 10:12 AM	#6 Re: Leaking Diff????
wobbler Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 191	Thanks very much for the feedback guys. The o-rings in the coupler were replaced at the same time as the bearings and seals so only have 6 or so shows on them. I can't really see them being the problem unless the shaft and coupler were worn, which I don't think is the case? I have been caught by the torque tube bolts/ studs not being sealed before and always ensure that they are sealed with liquid thread sealer. I think Scott may have identified the problem as I suspect that the bearing is not quite a tight enough fix as it is fairly easy to remove with out too much force. I would have thought that the coupler seal would have done a better job but then I guess when at operating temperature the oil does become a lot thinner and I guess the housing expands too equalling the regular mess that I have. Seems strange that winters and others make the shims for the sprintcar diffs but not the midget diffs. I guess there isn't the demand for them. Thanks again all, I guess I now need to find a decent local machine shop.

11/6/08, 2:48 PM	#7 Re: Leaking Diff????
TQ29m Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 6,559	Wobbler, last time it happened to me, my 3rd center section, I measured the bore, minus the bearing, and added a couple thou, and went to my local, old time auto supply store, and bought a length of feeler stock, I think they are 12 in long, set it in the bore, cut it to length, got everything ready, warmed up the housing, and installed the bearing, still holding. Might be worth a shot, if that's what you find. Bob

11/7/08, 10:58 AM	#9 Re: Leaking Diff????
LEADERS EDGE Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 980	It is indeed a cheaper fix, but you have to remember that the hole isn't just bigger, it is stretched. There is nothing saying that it is a uniform size and "round". Trust me; I get cheap and I understand a simple fix, but there is fixing something right once instead of having to fix it twice. Have someone find center and open the hole to make it round again and then make a sleeve that gives you about .3 thou crush. Even if you spend $50-$100, consider the time and mess you have to deal with.