[jdull99]

Originally Posted by Bob Parker Frank, Thanks for your reply. As I always get a little miffed when the subject of midget engines comes up. I want to make sure I follow what you are saying. Based on your comment using my arbitrary % figure here —-- So are 80% of the non-D2 and BMARA midget engines just non-competitive at the Xtream and USAC national level?

I'm not Frank, and I just mentally can't 100% connect everything about the last sentence of your question (the "the non-D2 and BMARA midget engines" part just throws me off...it's like 3 different kinds of midgets...and yes, I certainly realize the top bmara ones can go just as fast as national ones and cost less than a national engine...) but bottom line, I think it is few and far between when anything other than a TRD or SR-11 has won a recent National midget race...Corey Day/and the Kahne team (somehow) at Turkey night with their 20+ year old Mopar, but otherwise, I'm not sure...

This is an article about the TRD's & SR-11/etc from like two years ago; and I'm not sure how much has changed since -

https://www.performanceracing.com/ma...-midget-racing

But then, the definition of "competitive" has to be established. Do racers run top 5 sometimes with something else? Top 10? Lead lap? What classifies them as competitive?

Ideally there ARE examples of different combos at least being relevant in the field. The Engler cars? What else is out there?

You can go thru last year's USAC results and start seeing a lot of the same car #s up front, but you have to look around to figure out who might be running smthn other than a TRD or a SR11...

https://www.thethirdturn.com/wiki/20...onship_Central

I can't find Xtreme results from 2025, but here is 2024...(for the same research)

https://www.thethirdturn.com/wiki/20...Toyota_Central

What engines were Tmez and Daum running when they won?

[jdull99]

What you can notice in those result links tho, the car counts are actually pretty healthy all-and-all (yes, I noticed some 17/18 car Xtreme nights in 2024, but, as noted, that was an exception). Solid feature fields and B-mains on many occasions.

Is it like it was 40 years ago? No, but what is? NASCAR and Indycar certainly are not the same as they were...(really, is winged sprint car racing about the only form of racing that is as strong or stronger than it was???)

I look at it as; it's professional midget racing. The teams are well prepared, and many have full-time mechanics...it's like a traveling series of top-notch efforts. I really don't know if that can be considered a bad thing...it's like when the WoO / HL come to town, you are gona have the best of the best running; but in this case; it is the USAC midgets. Which, I think those involved should be proud of...just sadly, it's not 1986 anymore...

&, if you look at those results, no one ran the full season!!! (Back when USAC scheduled on top of itself...which I haven't figured out when the 1st year they didn't do that was...)

https://www.thethirdturn.com/wiki/19...Series_Central

[kendirt]

Originally Posted by jdull99 I'm not Frank, and I just mentally can't 100% connect everything about the last sentence of your question (the "the non-D2 and BMARA midget engines" part just throws me off...it's like 3 different kinds of midgets...and yes, I certainly realize the top bmara ones can go just as fast as national ones and cost less than a national engine...) but bottom line, I think it is few and far between when anything other than a TRD or SR-11 has won a recent National midget race...Corey Day/and the Kahne team (somehow) at Turkey night with their 20+ year old Mopar, but otherwise, I'm not sure... This is an article about the TRD's & SR-11/etc from like two years ago; and I'm not sure how much has changed since - https://www.performanceracing.com/ma...-midget-racing But then, the definition of "competitive" has to be established. Do racers run top 5 sometimes with something else? Top 10? Lead lap? What classifies them as competitive? Ideally there ARE examples of different combos at least being relevant in the field. The Engler cars? What else is out there? You can go thru last year's USAC results and start seeing a lot of the same car #s up front, but you have to look around to figure out who might be running smthn other than a TRD or a SR11... https://www.thethirdturn.com/wiki/20...onship_Central I can't find Xtreme results from 2025, but here is 2024...(for the same research) https://www.thethirdturn.com/wiki/20...Toyota_Central What engines were Tmez and Daum running when they won?

The only USAC Midget race I went to last year was the Fireman's Nationals.

Cale Coons won a heat race with an SR-11x. That was the only sign of life out of anything other than a Toyota.

T-Mez has said on his channel that the EA-Stealths make more horsepower than the Toyotas you can buy. He feels like they're at least 20hp down to the Toyotas you can't.

If you look at the class as a Toyota driver development league that they are kind enough to let other drivers participate in, everything makes more sense.

Badger cars can and have ran top ten against USAC. It's been a few years, but Tyler Baran ran 5th Badger-legal against POWRi at Spoon River. That being said, the track would have to lock down hard for one to ever win.

[Frank Reiner]

Originally Posted by kendirt If you look at the class as a Toyota driver development league that they are kind enough to let other drivers participate in, everything makes more sense.

This is a very prescient thought; Toyota has, in the past, entered a class with an engine, pushed it hard with considerable funding, became the must have engine, and when participation in the class no longer was of value to their marketing, departed. That pull-out left owners of the engines without a parts source. The class almost collapsed, but has survived with an assortment of other engines. The class in question is the SCCA's Formula Atlantic. In its Pro years it was a stepping stone to Indy cars, and later as a club class produced large fields with very good racing.
It may be that as long as Toyota remains in NASCAR, the Midget engine program, as an offshoot of their NASCAR effort, will remain supported. When road cars have moved far enough towards electrification that combustion engines are on the decline, participation in NASCAR will no longer be of value to Toyota. At that point Toyota will leave, and the Midget program will also be over.

[brown11b]

Originally Posted by Frank Reiner It may be that as long as Toyota remains in NASCAR, the Midget engine program, as an offshoot of their NASCAR effort, will remain supported. When road cars have moved far enough towards electrification that combustion engines are on the decline, participation in NASCAR will no longer be of value to Toyota. At that point Toyota will leave, and the Midget program will also be over.

Toyota is not in Nascar for engine development and wont leave when road cars are electric. Toyota's primary reason to be in Nascar and other forms of circle track racing is to Americanize a Japanese brand to the American public.

[jason88cubs]

USAC has picked up JACKSONVILLE and COLES COUNTY(Usual Xtreme Outlaw) along with 3 races at Red Hill this year

I am HOPING this opens up USAC to Illinois more. I have been advocating for USAC hard and emailed the promoter at my local track begging for USAC

[jdull99]

Well, isn't that special...

https://speedsport.com/sprints-midge...s-on-specials/

...So, they are proclaiming an issue with the "economy" (saying it's "shifting") of national midgets (*); but are still sanctioning a couple of those races; and are involved with two other midget type series who have more controlled engine rules...

(*) say what you wish about national midget racing, but in no other time in history; have this many teams competed in ALL the USAC national midget races...(either good or bad, 10 teams made every feature in 2024...2025 wasn't available on this source I referenced -
https://thethirdturn.com/wiki/2024_U...onship_Central

...before that, thru the previous years, it appears 7 teams making most of the features was the highest. Sure, was it easier for part-time and local teams to run up front / win national midget races "back in the day"? Yep. But for the overall championship; and comparing to other national traveling series (a double digit # of regulars IS good!); it's hard to argue that this isn't somewhat healthier than when it was when only 2-3 (as it was many years) teams were actually going to all of the races, at least???

BUT, if EVERY other midget series in the country accepts some form of more controlled engine specs; will the national series eventually have to??? Time will tell...