[MRAY3]

From the POWRi D2 Rule Book:
Fuel Injection: “Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed, but must be readily available and have supported software. No carburetors.”

**** “Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed” ****

Check this out!

Product
MoTeC M800 ECU

SKU:
M 820

- 4MB Logging Upgrade
- Single Lambda

$6,323.00 (USD)

Are you guys SURE you want to require all "stock" internal parts and then allow $6000 engine management systems? That's just for the ECU, it doesn't include the injection unit!

A claim rule on the longblock won't keep out all the $6000+ (each) "Bolt-Ons"

Oh but remember... "NO Carburetors!"

I'm willing to bet, by the time you take all the parts allowed by the D2 rules, use a perfectly legal $6000 ECU, and add them to a $2000 longblock, you could have bought that engine that's being blamed for "escalating" the cost of D2 midget engines.

[Wayne Davis]

If you don't like D-2 rules you can always go race a national midget.....damn give it a chance to work its self out before all you na sayers throw it under the bus. Why can't you just LOVE midget racing period and not ***** about it....most of you are not ever gonna race a D-2 midget or a Badger 2.4...

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis The biggest cost of these engines are the "BOLT ON" accessorizes. Headers/Ing. system/Oil pan/Injection/Pumps... been told by a few builders that a long block D-2 ecotech is like $1500-$2000 without oil pan and 2 others $2500-$3000 with oil pan, race ready (long block)....You have a 1 time $7500/$10,000 investment for the complete race ready engine,,,or you can still go out buy the bolt ons and get your own long block have the machine work done yourself and put it together for less then that...hell just put a claim rule on the long block (Block/Crankshaft/Head and Cams) say $1700 without oil pan or $2300 with oil pan....no tech...no teardown...problem solved...if you refuse to sell the engine (long block) you will not be allowed to race at ANY Division II series period for a year.

Wayne

Seen a lot of people put a lot of money in claimer engines, doesn't ever seem to work out. Andy Bradley are you enjoying this discussion?

Honest Dad himself

[DAD]

M

My first racing experience was in Quarter Midgets back in the 50's. It took several hours to tec a box stock continental and 5 minutes to tec a AA motor. The first cam doctor was probably invented 40 years ago to tec the Continental 216 camshaft for stock dimensions. Before ISO there was quite a large deviation in specifications. People spent large sums buying stock cams that they felt had the largest allowable out of spec. Discard broke out all the time over .005' AND .01 degree. An old guy out on the West Coast named Ernie Bose experimented with valve springs and found that installing springs with a little lower tension he could float the valves a controlled amount and increase performance, so much for cam specs.

Having inspected in 4 cycle Briggs class you must know all about how +- .005 can determine wining and DQ"s. Remember checking the heads for being ground and then people pressing the center of the combustion down in a press to achieve a supposed advantage, and then finding out they pressed too far in a tec inspecton. The little Briggs was probably the ultimate in over teched Motors. Yet there always seemed to be someone that was the fastest, that always seemed to tec within specs. Motor builders were Wizards and commanded very high numbers for their engines. Was it the Engine Builder or something else that made so and so soo darned fast??? Do you remember people selling hones to Karter's to hone their tail pipes out with to achieve that last .001 Horsepower out of their engines. Then they came out with the pipe of the month club to offer the racer even more advantage over the competition.

Point being that even in a very highly teched class there were still racers with a very big advantage over the competition. There was also racers spending a lot of good money looking for that secret when really the secret was that "NUT" sitting behind the steering wheel.

In any entry level racing division there will always be people placing more faith in the Motive Power rather than in the power of that "NUT" just behind the steering wheel. We all know that the engine builder knows the secret on how to make me win and heck I know that I am as good of driver as AJ could ever hope to be.

The quickest way to end the tec is to allow what ever you brung, the down side of this is with human nature being what it is, there will always be somebody willing to out spend the competition.

As far as MoTec and ECU's. A world leader in aftermarket units. I think the 8000 is the top of the line unit that even includes Data Acquisition ability. A bit over kill but there are guys that will roll up in a quarter million dollar hauler with one on their D2 midget to win a $500.00 race. I can guarantee it. A very good workable unit can be bought for around $1000.00, and it will last a lifetime and can be moved from engine platform to engine platform.

NOW the real secret Kiddo's. These cars perform best and put on the best racing on tracks in the 1/5th to 1/4 mile in size. The racers in Illinois have a distinct advantage here. On tracks of these sizes even a pretty much stock D2 can hang with a full blown TRO, HOW COME??? Or even better yet spend $10,000.00 with American Racer and have a mold made for a 10" wide Right rear tire, Now Horsepower has been taken out of the equation all together and a premium on set up and driving skills will have replaced Horse Power.

Honest Dad himself

[Backitin]

Originally Posted by DAD Wayne Seen a lot of people put a lot of money in claimer engines, doesn't ever seem to work out. Andy Bradley are you enjoying this discussion? Honest Dad himself

I almost said claimer rule also, but it has never worked that I know of.
Someone might not have anymore money in his engine then the next guy but he might have way more time, research and know how put into it.
When they lose a engine or two, they stop showing up.
A great setup in a slower car will beat a mega horsepower ill handling car every time on the right size track for the car.
If I had to pick one guy for my team, one was a guru setup guy and the other was a master engine builder I'd pick the setup guy everytime.

[jdull99]

Originally Posted by MRAY3 From the POWRi D2 Rule Book: Fuel Injection: “Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed, but must be readily available and have supported software. No carburetors.” **** “Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed” **** Check this out! Product MoTeC M800 ECU SKU: M 820 - 4MB Logging Upgrade - Single Lambda $6,323.00 (USD) Are you guys SURE you want to require all "stock" internal parts and then allow $6000 engine management systems? That's just for the ECU, it doesn't include the injection unit! A claim rule on the longblock won't keep out all the $6000+ (each) "Bolt-Ons" Oh but remember... "NO Carburetors!" I'm willing to bet, by the time you take all the parts allowed by the D2 rules, use a perfectly legal $6000 ECU, and add them to a $2000 longblock, you could have bought that engine that's being blamed for "escalating" the cost of D2 midget engines.

REAL SIMPLE - DON'T ALLOW THE "$6000 engine management systems"...

[MRAY3]

Originally Posted by Wayne Davis If you don't like D-2 rules you can always go race a national midget.....damn give it a chance to work its self out before all you na sayers throw it under the bus. Why can't you just LOVE midget racing period and not ***** about it....most of you are not ever gonna race a D-2 midget or a Badger 2.4...

Wayne, I have been an owner and/or a part owner of a national midget since 1973, and I have just finished up building (yes, building not buying) a Badger legal 2.4 engine. I have never been a “deep pockets” guy. I have sacrificed way more than I ever should have in order to own and run a midget. My car WILL be racing in Badger this season. I would say that constitutes a “LOVE” for midget racing.
As far as giving this D-2 thing “a chance to work itself out,” I simply pointed out SOME of the fallacies of the ideas people are posting on this board. Besides, I didn’t know your series was a part of the POWRi or IMRA/USAC D2 series. My intent was not to ruffle anyone’s feathers, it was simply to educate some people on writing rules and then trying to enforce them. Mandating “stock” cams, without having the knowledge and equipment to properly inspect them, is setting yourself up to fail. People are going to cheat, and honest people are going to leave the sport, never to return. How is that going to “work out?” Allowing $6000 ignition systems (whether they are a performance advantage or not) while banning parts that improve reliability, is ridiculous. One D-2 engine builder has been advertising his modified “stock” valves for sale. You can buy stainless steel aftermarket racing valves for these engines for almost the same money that new factory O.E.M. stock valves cost. But the more reliable stainless steel valves are illegal. Of course, if you allow these low cost aftermarket valves, (NOT titanium valves) who would buy this guy’s valves? Hmm, was there possibly an agenda here?
I have even read posts elsewhere from people complaining about coated bearings in the D-2 series. How ridiculous is it to worry about somebody running coated bearings, when they don’t complain about $6000 ignition systems? Do people really want to tear engines down far enough to find coated bearings?

If you find anything that I have posted to be untrue, feel free to correct me. I can take the heat. If I couldn’t, I would not have posted on this board.

Mark Ray

[jdull99]

Originally Posted by TQ29m This issue needs to be resolved as soon as possible, this, properly worked out, could easily be the recovery of reasonable cost midget racing, and with the right results with common sense rules will get a lot of attention, stock block, head, and crank, no head work, no Ti, just a valve job and springs, that with some compression, and the proper cams should be enough to make 250hp, and run a long while, cost, 3-4 K with some shopping. Bob

I respectively nominate this gentleman for president of all things to do with anything called "2.4 racing"!!!

[Ray3]

Originally Posted by jdull99 REAL SIMPLE - DON'T ALLOW THE "$6000 engine management systems"...

They were not allowed in the original "Midget Lites" later "D2" rule book that was written for the 2014 season and were not allowed in 2015 either. Then the rule book was rewritten for 2016 and now they are allowed.

They are NOT allowed in Badger, however. But Badger is NOT "D2". Jason, don't confuse people by mixing 2.4L Midget Racing and D2 Midget Racing. They are NOT the same thing.

[MRAY3]

Originally Posted by jdull99 REAL SIMPLE - DON'T ALLOW THE "$6000 engine management systems"...

Jason, what I was trying to point out here goes deeper than just the $6000 engine management system. The point is, the people who wrote the D-2 rules overlooked this, among other things. When are they going to ban them, AFTER 4 or 5 of them show up?

People are complaining about the engine pictured in the first post, remember..."Here We Go?" That engine doesn't have a $6000 ECU.