National lightning sprint meeting
 

So after the national lightning sprint meeting between many of the organizations..... did they come up with a set of rules that everyone has accepted, and/or enforcing? Looking on many of the websites there all very different still.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Australian Lightning Sprint Clubs have good set of rules, hope to see USA do the same.. Here is the footage of our National Title ...

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

would like to see the verdict on the final set of rules, we have a set we have been following for years , and would like to see the difference and talk to the guys to see their thoughts but it doesnt make sense for everyone else to be following a national set of rules and us be outlaws with our own set ! we want to abide but just need to know what they are so we can

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Rather than copy and pasting the entire set of rules, let me simply address the "critical" issues that was voted on at the meeting and discussed further with emails. Let me say at this point..........MALS, MLS and MMSA have agreed to the rules and tech procedures. MMSA is allowing porting for this year with complete package compliance beginning the 2015 season. Other groups have not responded as to their final intentions for this year versus next year. Two other groups have dry sump systems and porting allowed for this year and have expressed an "inclination" to accept the rules package next near but nothing has been stated officially. The sixth group that attended claims they are already running "stock" 1000cc motors but has yet to commit to the rules and tech procedure. We are hoping all groups eventually accept the total package but only time will tell. As mentioned before, the meeting was a step in a positive direction to unify a rules and tech procedure package with all parties involved leaving with a very good attitude about what had been accomplished to this point. I think everyone realized that was not an overnight solution for some groups due to the need to grandfather out certain concerns. NO one wanted to "park" any race cars right off the bat. If I have said anything out of line about the direction this is going or information given below, someone please enlighten me. Anyway, common sense car construction, safety rules, race procedures, protest procedures and wing sizes are pretty standard and fall in line with what all the groups have now. The "stand out" rules at this point are as follows:

Weigh rule................940# winged, 910# non-winged (no weight differences for gas versus alky)
Wheelbase................65" minimum and 72" maximum

No quick change rearends. Chain inside main frame rails.

No chassis altering devices allowed from inside the cockpit during an event, I.E. computer controlled shocks, cockpit adjustable shocks, torsion bar/blade adjusters, etc. Exception would be electrical or mechanical wing adjusters, Dial-a-jets, or brake proportioning valves. The knobs on existing adjustable shocks can be relocated behind the driver seat, as long as the driver cannot adjust the shocks while they are racing or on a yellow flag. Or simply removed.

Motor specification.......Four cylinder, four cycle production motorcycle motors with 1000cc stock stroke and bore. Must be
over two years old. Any motors other than Honda, Kawasaki, Suzuki and Yamaha subject to prior approval. No BMW's
allowed at this time. Note some organizations are allowing 1200cc motors with additional weight for the year 2014.
Check local organizations for 1200cc motor rules if they allow them.

Electrical self starting with operating clutch and all production transmission gears usable.

No metal removal internally

Mechanical and electronic fuel injection allowed. Gas or alcohol acceptable. No nitro, nitrous oxide or oxygen enhancing
fuel additives are allowed in either gas or alcohol fuels.

Stock head, cylinder and crankcase. .015 milling allowed for head warpage. Stock cams with stock duration and lift
required. Stock pistons only. Stock valves required. No port work allowed. Note that it is the participants responsibility to
verify which organizations have made an exception on porting for the 2014 race season only.

Dry sumps not allowed beginning 2015. Local organization option for 2014. It is again the participants responsibility to
verify club rules for 2014.

Motor tech procedures to consist of checking bore and stroke. Bore scope top of piston for stock configuration and
checking deck height in relationg to the top of the spark plug hole. Spark plug hole at entry point will be visually inspected
for stock configuration. Bore scope will be utilized to check for any porting work or aftermarket valves. Note that fuel may
be checked a the discretion of the Tech Coordinator.

No traction control systems. No driver communication systems other than track required raceceivers when required.

Age limits determined by host track rules.


I have only listed the "high spots" that were, as I stated, agreed to at the meeting/emails. I can send the entire package to anyone that wants one, just let me know your email address. Everyone agreed at the meeting to take "baby steps" on the rules package and make adjustments at the end of the year as need be. This was just a simple start. No one came to the meeting with an agenda. We all have the same goal..........increase car counts by trying to control costs. Also promote a more competitive environment. Let racers know they can participate with other organizations and know they are on a level playing field. That being said........All group of 1000cc Lightning Sprints/1000cc MiniSprints are encouraged to review the rules package developed to this point and hopefully accept them at some point.

Sorry about the novel but I didn't know how else to condense this. Please let me know if anyone wants a complete rules package for review.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Phil

Just reading over your rules again. There is a rule in their that says the chain must be inside the main frame rail. Does this hold true for Henchcraft Cars and the new Hyper also?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Got a link to the full rules? Thank you

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

It is inside the main frame rail of a Henchcraft. So therefore it would not apply to a Henchcraft.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Bear

On his newer cars doesn't Hench move the left rear frame rail inside the rear sprocket to make gear changing easier? and I think the same holds true for the new Hyper cars also Mike actually bends the left frame rail in with a dog leg to the center of the car to do the same thing. Like Smokey said "they didn't say I couldn't".

Rules are a pain>>>> whenever you come up with what seems like a real good rule there is always an instant when it ends up doing something you did not want it to do.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

No the chain is inside the left side fraim rail ...

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

I think that depends on how you define "left side frame rail". From the countershaft sprocket to just before the rear axle assembly, a newer Hench meets the letter of the rule; but I could see where an over-zealous official might look at the "jog" that moves the rail inboard of the sprocket and interpret it as not being "within the frame rail". I'm sure that the intent of such a rule is to further limit radical engine offsets but such questions point out just how difficult rules creation and interpretation can be...

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Jim

The rule has good intent, but this is one of them rules we really don't need and that could cause problems for some unlucky smuck in the future. I know, I have been a smuck before.

The 6" offset rule should handle most problems in this area. Years ago we had a guy that attached a stub shaft to his counter sprocket with a double row chain flex coupler, then he welded a bearing carrier to his frame rail and moved both sprockets outside the frame rail to make gear changing easier. That was before we came along with the radical left offset like used on midgets which made that idea a non starter, now we rub the left rear torsion arm with the left rear tire sidewall and don't have anyplace to put the sprocket but inside the frame rail.

Looks like that rear sprocket and chain is outside the left rear lower frame rail to me on the attached pic.

I got this kid that works for me who is showing me all kinds of neat things to do on a computer. Now if I could only remember how to do them by myself.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Where do you measure 6" offset from.. Widest point of the frame, firewall? Imaginary center line.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Outside shock mounts, torsion tubes .. Etc... The rule was made to get rid of that. I believe it's inside the main frame rail at the firewall.

That's not the main lower DAD.. The main lower takes an upward slope to prevent the frame rail from dragging.

The left firewall tube which is connected to the main frame rail limits the engine from being offset more.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Here s the way I look at things in my older more confused and cloudy mind. Over the years I have deffinitley flip flopped on a lot of views. Why do we make rules to make ourselves exclusive to ourselves? Why would one want to outlaw one drive system over another. Chain inside the frame rail or no quick change allowed. Sure we can always bring up cost of doing something, or safety. But really what we are just trying to do is to make those people with a little different approach to accomplishing the same goal not eligible to compete against us.

Their are young guys out there like Bob that have raced T/Q's and being people that like to push the envelope a little might decide to bolt a 1000cc motor into an old TQ frame and come race with us. If we are so smug in our idea that chain is superior why wouldn't we want to give a guy with a little different car the chance to prove us wrong. Or for that matter why would the T/Q groups not allow a 600cc upright to race with them.

I guess the TQ guys could say we have all race cars we need now so "NO MORE NON CONFORMING RACERS ALLOWED". That is always subject to change. Can the 600cc and 1000cc uprights say the same thing?

What is wrong with a little more competition?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Andy

Just another rule that really doesn't need to be there?

What ties into the rear torsion rack on the left side?

Lets not make life more complicated than it already is.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Gee...........I can remember not that long ago when the midget guys said NO CHAIN drives allowed. What was your response then DAD? Did you attempt to enlighten them too? I realize there are a few organizations combining drive systems now but there are only a few. Times changed and people's opinions changed. Maybe that will happen with this deal but why don't we give some of this stuff a chance. Everyone at the meeting agreed we needed to start somewhere........this is that "somewhere." Either people can accept it or reject it. Their choice. Everyone also agreed EVERYTHING is subject to review at year's end.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

DAD, if you are refering to me, thanks for the "young guy" comment, I do wish I fit that billing! At 76, I am young I guess, as young as I can feel anyway, but I do remember being more agile. You know the old saying, be carefull what you wish for, and I do like to "mess" around a bit, I never did like "stock" classes, costs to much to keep them stock, and with these motors, there isn't much you can do, and keep them stock, if it were me, and it isn't, I'd look in the plug hole, and cc the bore and stroke, and if it was "close", that's about as far as I would go, there is little space that already isn't occupied in that cylinder, and believe me, I've tested it, so aftermarket pistons to me, would be OK, some of the stock pistons were cast, and some were forged, I'd pick the forged for strength, and the cast for speed, and as far as cams go, you can get about as much Hp just by increasing the intake clearances as anything, there's only so much you can change them, without tagging the pistons, so maybe measuring the cam, or degreeing them isn't such a big deal, remember, for every rule you put in, ya gotta be able to back it up with tech proceedures, and everyone that's ever been the "man", you know how much fun that is. As far as the chain vs QC drive, in your case, I'd stay with the chain, it is a lot simpler, maybe, but with the clutch and all that stuff, it's really kinda impractical to try and get the engine where the rules say it needs to be, and still fit in a driveshaft where it is supposed to be, just a lot of work, and expense, when it isn't necessary. Now, if you had the car count, you might be able to add another class, that ran the QC like we do, and no tranny, but again, it'd take a while to build the car count, and you already have places you can run together, so why complicate it, and, not to step on any toes, but it is easier to maintain, and be able to do your own work, on a chain drive car, I have a complete machine shop at my disposal, so if I need to cut a case, or make any "special" parts, I just do it, in MY shop, so I don't have to pay to have it done, just my time. I build my own chassis, and make all my specialty parts, some stuff it's cheaper to buy, than make, that's why I stick with full midget parts where I can, or if it's something that I sell several of, I make patterns, and have them cast, then machine them, lots quicker than billet. I know you didn't ask for my input, but I couldn't resist the implication about being young, and pushing the envelope, I don't push it, I'm very careful when I do something, that's why I like our engine rules, we got a box we can work out of, and it gives us plenty of room to try things, without being a cheater! Bob!

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

the picture of the orange car looks legal to me

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Phil

Just poking a little fun, I know what you were trying to do with the frame rail rule, but why not let some people experiment. I realize it was sure not your intentions to make the Hench cars illegal, but that is how some people would see the rule. All you need is a guy wanting to win any way he can even if it means using a rule to do it with. It has happened to me and probably you several times. Better me bring it up now instead of some jerk just after a feature race win. Maybe this stuff is best left to PM's I guess?

That not long ago I think it was about 1969 or so when USAC banned chain, drive and that was because of a friend of mine trying to make a Full Midght just like an oversized 1/4 midget with a rear engine VW.

I try to do these posts with a little humor sometimes like Andy says wrestling with the pigs. If something comes out of them like bore scopes or better ways to tec motors that's even better. I told one guy that I try to play Devil's Advocate. There are a lot of what if's out there, and even more, What if we do it this way ideas. Your job is to decide what works best for the group, and never dismiss even the most lame brained suggestion that comes across, their might be just a glimmer of truth in their somewhere.

Heck I like your rules, especially giving us dry sump people a reprieve from ourselves "THANKS".



Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Ron

Neat the way I stuck that picture in there huh.!!!:D I'm gona be real puter literate pretty soon.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

First..........it's NOT my place to decide anything on my own. I have no agenda other than try to control costs, help class grow and maybe make the racing as competitive as possible. Everything decided was a GROUP decision. All the central region Lightning/Minisprint groups were represented and gave their input and voiced their concerns. What we have it the product of those discussions coupled with final decisions that were done by email after the rules package had worked it's way back to individual group meetings for additional input.

Everyone appreciates constructive discussions and differences of opinion. As long as it stays constructive. BTW.....Personally........I respect your input and obviously your experience.

There was no intention to make any chassis illegal. It was decided that the chain must pass inside the main frame rails at the motor plate area where the upright for the roll cage usually connects. Pretty simple. If someone wants to deviate and press the intent of the rule from there............knock yourself out. Just know that somewhere a tech man that "understands" the true intend of the rule might hammer your a$$ if your obvious intentions are WAY OUTSIDE THE BOX. This is why EVERYTHING is subject to review. Racers are racers......always experimenting or selling the gimmick of the week.

I can see where the rule fits. I was going to sneak a 1000cc in a midget and run the chain just on the outside of the frame so my seat was centered in there. It measured the center / center exactly at 6"....... I like that common ground has been reached and it seems all parties involved are still willing to negotiate collectively towards a common goal.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Pat

Guys did it like you are thinking about in the past. The problem is when you go outside the frame rain all of a sudden you have a frame rail and a torsion arm in the way of the rear sprocket also. So you end up with the axle centered or shifted way to the left to make room for the sprocket and chain. It would probably be better to run the chain inside the frame to get the max offset for the rear axle and move the driver to the right about 2 1/2 inches. Nobody ever gets that much engine offset anyhow, just one of them old lingering rules that nobody checks anyhow or bothered to eleminate. The sidewinders do it that way to make room for the drivers legs. As soon as you say the feet must be behind the engine there is no reason to go to the left too much with your engine.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

If the intent of the rule is that "the chain must pass inside the main frame rails at the motor plate area where the upright for the roll cage usually connects", then that's how it should read, then there's no "gray area" to exploit, and no confusion as to what defines the main frame rail. You know Dad's gonna look for the loophole; not neccesarily to take advantage of it, but to show you the potential for misunderstanding of our Mother Tongue...:9:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

You know a long wheel base TQ is the same wheel base of a short Mini sprint. A late model 1000cc motor in one of them little things would be one kick in the pants.:8::16:8:

A 225 horsepower TQ!!! and it would probably be 50 pounds lighter than an old 750 Honda.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Point well taken. This is one of those instances that other's input is much appreciated. I will adjust the verbage. Thank you.

I just might know where one is hiding..... :)

Pat I have the measurements and motor plates to convert a standard midget into a Minisprint if you need them.

I might take you up on that. I currently have an engine plate milled for a tq Suzuki setup in a full size beast midget.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Bob

I do appreciate and value your input. You only got me by 10 years, and I hope I can say that I am as active in the next decade. I've Never met you but can tell by your posts you are a pretty savvy racer. The old school racer may be from a time gone by, I appreciate your ability to make what you need. It is ashame you aren't old enough to have known my old friend Al Davis, he too was a machinest and pattern maker back in the Crosley days. He is the guy that made the first TQ rear ends castings. He was a true craftsman and built some beautiful race cars. This guy would take a lathe and an old round ram Bridgport and whittle crankshafts for them little old Crosleys.

Things may be a lot safer and better for the racers today but in the process we have managed to outlaw a lot of creative people and ideas. Racing means to experiment, AJ and I get into it about that all the time. He likes to stick with what he knows works and it is real hard to get him out on a limb and try something a little different. It is very hard to improve if you don't take a few chances.

Racing has become so specialized and commercial with factory made everything. Now we have people worrying about rules in a cookie cutter environment. If it is not legal it was bought from somebody else and not made by the racer.

To you younger guys out there the best thing I can say about getting old is you can say about anything you want to and people just say well there he goes again. I sure hope that just a little of this bull sinks in.


Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

I consider myself an old school racer simply because I AM OLD! I have learned one thing..........

Evolution, you can't beat it and you can't stop it.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

DAD, here's a piece of th past for ya! Bob

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

BTW, whats wrong with a round column Bridgeport, anyway, that's what I got, however I have updated it with computer controls, I can let it do the grunt work, while I watch it, I don't have a tool rack, or changer, so if there is any drilling or tapping to do, I have to do one or the other manually. Mine has a 48" table, so I got plenty of room on it to have a couple of setups on at the same time. I just don't see how anyone could run even a go-kart, with out machine tools, man, ya get an idea, ya just do it. Near as I can figure from the serial numbers on mine, the base was made in 1939, and the J head was made in 1956, but it still does a good job. If you'll click on that first picture, then click again, you can blow it up, one time, and on the end cap you can see AJ DAVIS cast on it. Bob

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Bob

Old Al was about as close to a genus as anybody I have ever known and I have known some pretty smart people. Kinda of hard to beat a sand casting when you want a part to look like it belongs on a race car isn't it.

Where the heck did you find those pictures. Sure brings back some memories. It is as pretty to me today as I remember it being 50 years ago.

Back in the early 50's Al decided his oldest boy Eddie needed a race car. This was just a little before 1/4 midgets showed up here in the mid-west. Well he went out and found an old Harley Hummer motor cycle motor, those were rare even back then, then he proceeded to build a front engined Kurtis Roadster knock off for Eddie to play in the school yard with. I guess I was about 8 or 9 at the time but I can still remember feeling just like Bill Vukovich driving that thing around that schoolyard. It came up for sale on EBAY a couple of years ago from some place up in Michigan, wish I had had the money to buy it.

Al had a portable PC computer back then (His Brain). He could crunch them numbers in his head as fast or faster than any nc mill could do today. Them old hand wheels really moved when he got hold of them and always stopped at the right place.

I got one of them little Mills to Bob, biggest problem was finding B&S tooling for it back before they invented China. I call it my whittling machine. I just get close and say what the hay?

Al didn't have too much but he sure made the best out of that he did have.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Phil

When we grow this class big enough to have a Senior Division and they make on-board oxygen legal for the driver (maybe just a little extra for the motor). I'll find an old car and show you a thing or two.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

There is a similar one on the bay now, it has a half of a Harley 45 in the front of it. Bob

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

DAD, mine is a full size Bridgeport, little by no means, weighs 4k, I've had to use a wrecker when moving it from my shop at home, to our big shop up town, then 23 yrs later back home. At one time I had Davis, and a Peck, and Peck & Davis. Bob

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Bob

I have a little Bridge Port with 42" table. I never met Charlie Peck, but from what I understand he was a pretty good machinist also. His shop was somewhere down in the country, and my Dad described him as an upscale Al Davis. He messed with a bunch of Micro stuff back then and I had a 10 ci. Continental that Charlie had built and he had machine 2 billet rods for them. They were beautiful and when you tapped them they rang like a bell. Talking about Old time craftsmen like those guys were, today is more like telling a folk story. They just get better and better with age.

Honest Dad himself:6::6: