Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Do you think sprint car racing should eliminate provisionals?

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I think it's fair for a touring series or even a track series to reward teams that support them each week with a "bone" every once in a while.

As long as the system is adhered to and not manipulated, I think it is fine.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

It doesn't matter what series, circuit, or type of car.....

In my mind, you either go fast or go home. Period.....End of discussion. The fact that you get outperformed by someone on a given evening is just that...you've been outperformed. Bad luck, a poor pill draw, caught up in someone else's crash...too bad, in my mind.

Isn't that why we run the races???

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

There should be no provisionals. You can take care of the teams that support you by paying both a respectable bottom end purse and sufficient tow money.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

DAMION GARDNER... all I have to say about the provisonals man...:respect:

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Well those are pretty easy things to say right up until you are the current points leader or you are in the top 5 in points and have just traveled 1,000 miles and missed the race because of any number of small problems that may not be of your doing.

I'm not saying that if you are a past champ that you should always make the show no matter what, I am saying that there should be some sort of incentive for those who currently support your series or track.

Most series or tracks have always had "promotors options" that were given to the promotor to keep he and the fans happy when the "big gun" he paid and promoted to draw the crowd in missed the show.

Jiggs almost always uses a provisional and it seems to work out well with little problems.

I remember when the Champ series took only 18 cars on qualifying and I am not saying that is wrong, but today we are in a little different situation.

What am not for is qualifying in the top 6 and then having to requalify through a heat and then a semi, just to get that same spot back. There should be a reward for qualifying well.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

IF you're going to award provisionals, I feel that you should...

Not award full points/purse to those that are given the provisional. Why should anyone get a chance to make money or points versus someone who does not get a provisional... just not right, IMO. After all, they both raced. right?

It shouldn't matter if you towed 1000 miles, or got caught up in someone else's wreck. or whatever.... You made the decision to tow those miles and race at the track....you won't be the first car to get crashed by a squirrel, nor will you be the last. Not a reason to award a provisional....

If you want to reward those cars/drivers/owners who towed the 1000 miles and then missed qualifying for the show, PAY BETTER TOW MONEY TO EVERYONE.

You haven't EARNED the right to race in the main any more than anyone else who missed the show...so why should you?

Sorry if I sound a bit strident about this, but provisionals really P*** me off

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Personally I say get rid of provisionals but I understand why they are there for the guys who support the series. The only change I believe should be made is if you take a provisional you only race for money and you only get your B-main points. Right now it is tough to make up any points if guys get in on a provisional. I know Woo and ASCS National Tour have both went to this format.

The All Stars have eliminated all provisionals and driver changes before the feature! :applaud:

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

the reason for provisionals in the WoO is because of the bigger sponsors.
the sponsor expects the car on the track, hopefully up front and gaining exposure, at every race...especially televised races.
so...in that case, i can understand it.
or as scott said, a traveling series where you have to tow a ways.
but locally....no, i dont believe there is a place for them.
race your way in and if you have a bad night, try again next week.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I say they are OK..But I say for everytime someone takes one..Someone else who just missed the A-Main gets in also..

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I think they should do something with sprintweek that deal with the Kruseman car last year just was not right. NO PROVISIONALS.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

You either make the race or you don't.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I agree! My pet peeve is coming though the B, and getting your time back. If you have to race in the B, tag the tail!

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

i say no

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Back in the old days (OK, back in the early '60s) I don't remember ever hearing of a provisional. However, and it is a big however, we had the "promoter's option". I've seen 1, 2 and even 3 cars added to the back of the field. I don't remember anyone ever being displeased because they were added. They were drivers who the fans wanted to see race and didn't make the "A" for whatever reason.

I don't disagree with some of the other responses about better tow money, etc. I just wanted to point out that, even in the days before provisionals, ways were found to get drivers into the feature who we wanted to see race. You may (I think rightly) disagree with the way it worked on a specific occasion, but I have no problem with the concept in general.

Frank Daigh

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Using the analogy that you go fast or go home, I then say that only the feature starters get paid. I'll take it one step farther and say only feature winners get paid.

If you showed up and are happy just being there or with running second, then you shouldn't be there in the first place. No tow money and no purse money for those who weren't fast enough to make the feature or finish first.

You know the risks going in and maybe you towed 1,000 miles for an expensve visit to a race track.

Not reasonable now is it, but that is basically how it is already with some touring groups for the guys who don't qualify in the top 32 and everyone says it's not fair.

Well if it's fair for a team to support a group all year without some sort of one or two time "allowence" for an error, then I say it's fair that you load up and go home basically paying the track and sanctioning body a rental fee for wasting their time with your shoddy and disappointing performance.

Guys, I have been a fan, a team member, a car owner, and a parts supplier. I have seen this sport from many angles and the one group that gets shorted constantly are the teams themselves and especially the ones that are on the fringes. Not quite the elite or not fast enough to be consistantly competitive. Every once in a while, every team needs a break and a reward for just competing. No matter how large or small that break is. For the small teams it may be making a race at Gas City when they just missed it. You cannot imagine what that can do for a guy who is just starting to come into his own and he gets a needed confidence boost. For some teams it may be getting a chance to keep your point lead at Perris when you are in a heated battle for the National Championship.

All of that is good as long as it is done without abuse and manipulation.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

From a fans perspective I do not see how a provisional is a bad thing I mean after all aren't you there to see cars race and as a fan are not the more the merrier? As a fan isn't exciting to see a fan favorite make a run from the back ala Damion at Gas City a few weeks ago? Does it really ruin the whole experience adding a provisional or two?

I guess my question is how does it affect "you" as a fan by adding a provisional?

From a car owners perspective is it a bad thing? I mean it takes a lot of $$ to run these things and if two more teams get an opportunity to make a little $$ does this hurt the show or the series?

Now the only down side I see is when it comes to points, personally I think that provisionals receivers should only receive points actually "earned" for the evening via their actual finish.

If the driver who wins the national championship uses 4 provisionals towards his point total and the driver who finishes second by 1 point uses 0 provisionals towards their point total who truly deserves the championship?

Speaking of provisionals there is a track in Cali who awards 1 provisional and it is only allowed to be used by the sponsor of the series, who by the way kid happens to participate. Although when he uses it I believe he does not receive points or $$.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Don't get me wrong, I believe that the opportunities need to be very limited and if you have used up your allotment before you get far from home, then your out of luck.

If it means some sort of points penalty in terms of not having a full points night, then that would most likely work as well.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

It is all about the money that is what is wrong with racing today its all about the money!

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Scott, I guess "as a fan" I just don't see why it matters, I mean I go to see a race if they add 2 cars to the back it does nothing to ruin my experience for the night and in fact if it happens to be Damion or Darland or praise be the Modern Day Cowboy, now there is added value to my 10 dollar ticket (15 at Lawrenceburg :) ) .

As a participant I think there are many more pro's and cons to the provisional scenario but again besides awarding points unless I get to use one it has zero effect on "my" evening of racing.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Don't fool yourself, it's always been about the money.

You know the glory days when they talk about "Barnstorming". Well Barnstorming is when a group of people(Racers,Basketball/Baseball people etc...) go on tour to cities. Many of the races were staged and the outcome decided before the race started. The promotor would pay a flat fee to everyone and they would go out and put on a show. There would be staged passes and crashes with steam pouring out from under the hood.

Not knowing any better, the crowd would go home excited and full of wonder and would want to come back again next time.

The other sports did basically the same thing.

Well over time that happened less often and real races took place. The empahsis to all of the old timers was how much money they could make. That led to faster cars and innovations and the evolvement of the sport into what you see today.

There is not one old timer I have met who has told me that the money paid to them was not important.

All of of this sport has been driven by money and it's close relative;Glory.

Your right though Tim; as a fan, what the heck do I care unless it is someone I am rooting for.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

The Pros: Damion Gardner. Gas City. Last Week.
The Cons: Michael Trimble. Every Race. Last Sprintweeks 2007.
So long as the Promoter agrees ahead of time that HE is paying the purse for the add-on, and doesn't have some total no-account like Trimble foisted upon his event like a bad cough, it should be allowed as a "Promoters Option", or as a Once-A-Season occurrence. To have a guy perpetually benefit from one is an insult.
And don't get me started on non-heat transfers getting to start on the pole........

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I agree with this. By this I mean promoters should not plan on a 22 car feature being 20 cars and 2 provisional. If you want 22 cars qualify 22 cars then add your provisionals. Step 2 if you take a provisional you do not get bottom pay. If bottom pay is $200, what ever place you finish, subtract $200 from the payout and that is what you earn. that 200 pays for the guy that qualified for the race that you just bumped down to bottom pay.

I really don't think people would have had problems with provisionals until guys started going out turning 1 or 2 laps then pull off. THAT ANNOYS ME!

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Personally,I don't like em but understand the need for a couple.

I say no more than 3 at any race. Two for the highest sanctioned not making the show and one for promotors option (Probably past track champion not making the show)

Expecially on the quarters, We don't need 28 cars on the track and I must say I was a little upset seeing Trimble start every show in which he only qualified for one over say even the first non qualifier from the B. Thats rediculous.

Chuck

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

Let's talk about the USAC provisionals:

You get a limited amount during the year. I believe it is 4.

They are available to a certain # of car owners based upon points standings.

You get to tag the tail of the feature.

You are paid the purse money for the position you finish MINUS last place (22nd starter money). For example if you start 23rd with a provisional and you race to 12th you earn a whopping $150 for your efforts! PA purse below
1. $4,000 2. $2,000 3. $1,300 4. $1,050 5. $925 6. $825 7. $700 8. $675 9. $650 10. $625 11. $600 12. $550 13. $550 14. $525 15. $500 16. $450 17. $450 18. $425 19. $425 20. $425 21. $400 22. $400

FACT: USAC does not genneraly pay tow money. Some occasions we do receive some money but it comes nowhere close to covering even the fuel costs to get to those races. The locals don't have to incur the cost as they are "local".

You earn at least 13 additional points in the championship to start the feature. This is the most important item for teams traveling across the country chasing a championship.

So what does this mean to the fans:

They genearlly get to see an additional top team/driver compete in the feature event.

It does not cost the promoter any additional money so it should not cost the fan any extra money either.

They may get to see a great run like Darland at Gas City and Brownstown this year.

Where is the downside? It does not negatively affect the locals since the provisional is not taking a spot in the feature from them.

Rob Hoffman

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

It cheapens the records of those who earned their way into main events. To me, it used to be a huge achievement to race yourself into all the Sprintweek races. Nowdays, all you need to do is make half on your own and take provisionals in the rest.

It cheapens the points race. As Tim C pointed out, you can have a situation where a guy who uses no provisionals can finish 2nd in the points behind a guy who uses all his provisionals to earn enough points to finish ahead of 2nd place. You are telling me that's a *win*?

I can understand that the Krogers of the world wouldn't be happy to not see their car on the racetrack. So to appease the sponsors, I say let em use provisionals but receive no main event points. If by chance you happen to come from the back of the pack and win the race, it doesn't count as an official win because you weren't supposed to be there in the first place. Yes, your win will probably go down as one of the epic comebacks of all time but it won't count in the record books or points.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I really don't have a problem with all that. I do have a problem using a team cars provisionals over your own and even another cars not on the team your with.. Didn't they give you two additional for Sprint Week and the CRA guys two based on top points not qualifying? Thats more than the two or whatever you get for the whole year thats possibly six and when you add other teams and changing car numbers to do it. Well, I agree, it cheapens the whole deal.

Id much rather see a couple more cars from the B who earned their way thru racing in than someone who qualified bad, finished out of a qualifying possition in both the heat and consi and/or never really had to race at all to make the show

IM possitive it's needed for some teams to even consider traveling. However that was a little rediculous. I think the Williams Grove National open last year started 31 cars. 9 of which were provisionals of some kind or another.

Chuck, leaving it alone from here. The question was to the fans.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I Hate provisionals!!! I am just a fan but I dont want to see some one race that didnt earn a spot in that race i dont care if it is my favorite driver or not.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

There are no additional provisionals given for sprintweek. Total of 4 for the year.

I have benefited from provisionals and been hurt by provisionals. My point being, if it is the same for all those in the points championship race and it does not take money from anyone else where is the problem?

p.s. If we had exercised our provisional at IRP last year we would have finished 2nd in the points instead of 3rd.

Rob Hoffman

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

I think in the national tour you have to have provisionals, expecially if your not going to pay tow money. maybe they should make some exceptions to sprint week and not have any, but then again sprint week has always been biast twords the dirt. What about the asphault guys competeing for a national title. the bigger point is no matter what happens not everyone will be happy. Don't tell me none of the great drivers of the past such as an AJ Foyt never got a promoter option to start on the tail, and came up thru to win. Things like this have been happening for a long long time, they just change names or ways that named or dedicated drivers make the field.

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

no provisionals.** How is it fair for cottle to miss the usac show at brownstown becouse of owners points from last year. Missing the show droped him down to 10th in points from 3rd. He will spend all summer trying to catch the top teams from last year . Thay have to have 5 bad night missing a show (using their 4 provisionals)untill they are back on the same playing field. I dont know how often last years champion took provisionals, and I wonder if sombody could figure the points and remove the points earned with provisionals, we might end up with a different champion. From a fans standpoint, I spent over $100 to go to brownstown to watch my favorite driver miss the show(he had a bad night). It was still a good show I got my moneys worth. Racing is a gamble and somtimes you lose. If (insert your favorite traveling group if it usac,kiss,umra,amsa, or whoever)wants to support their top drivers and help offset the bad nights pay them show up / tow money equal to what last place pays that night. I think the WoO still does this. It might never make a difference who wins a championship, but we know it made a difference in who finished 2nd last year in usac.

Just my thoughts, and trust me im nobody lol.......Dale

Re: Provisionals in sprint car racing???
 

From the USAC 2008 Rule Book:

1304 Provisional Starting Positions:
The National Sprint Car Series will include a maximum of two provisional starters in each feature event providing there are eligible entrants who accept this option.
The Western, USAC/CRA ad Regional Sprint Car Series will include a maximum of one provisional starter in each feature event providing there is an eligible entrant who accepts this option.
The following conditions apply to provisional starters:
1. The top 20 in Entrant points are eligible for a maximum of four provisional starts per season with the top Entrant in points, not qualifying for the feature, being the first recipient. If an eligible Entrant elects not to use a provisional, his/her position will be taken by the next highest in point standings.
2. For the Western and USAC/CRA Series the top 15 in Entrant points are eligible for a maximum of two provisional starts per season with the top Entrant in points, not qualifying for the feature, being the first recipient. If an eligible Entrant elects not to use a provisional, his/her position will be taken by the next highest in point standings.
3. Prior to June 1st, “Provisionals” will be based upon the seasons ending points from the previous season. After June 1st “Provisionals” will be based on the current point standings as posted prior to the event.
4. Starting positions, point allocations and additional eligibility requirements can be found in 5.4C, 5.10 and 9.10 C.

So for all those Cottle fans, he will be eligible for a provisional in PA if he needs one!

Rob Hoffman