Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by jjones752:
I think that depends on how you define "left side frame rail". From the countershaft sprocket to just before the rear axle assembly, a newer Hench meets the letter of the rule; but I could see where an over-zealous official might look at the "jog" that moves the rail inboard of the sprocket and interpret it as not being "within the frame rail". I'm sure that the intent of such a rule is to further limit radical engine offsets but such questions point out just how difficult rules creation and interpretation can be...

Jim

The rule has good intent, but this is one of them rules we really don't need and that could cause problems for some unlucky smuck in the future. I know, I have been a smuck before.

The 6" offset rule should handle most problems in this area. Years ago we had a guy that attached a stub shaft to his counter sprocket with a double row chain flex coupler, then he welded a bearing carrier to his frame rail and moved both sprockets outside the frame rail to make gear changing easier. That was before we came along with the radical left offset like used on midgets which made that idea a non starter, now we rub the left rear torsion arm with the left rear tire sidewall and don't have anyplace to put the sprocket but inside the frame rail.

Looks like that rear sprocket and chain is outside the left rear lower frame rail to me on the attached pic.

I got this kid that works for me who is showing me all kinds of neat things to do on a computer. Now if I could only remember how to do them by myself.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Where do you measure 6" offset from.. Widest point of the frame, firewall? Imaginary center line.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Outside shock mounts, torsion tubes .. Etc... The rule was made to get rid of that. I believe it's inside the main frame rail at the firewall.

That's not the main lower DAD.. The main lower takes an upward slope to prevent the frame rail from dragging.

The left firewall tube which is connected to the main frame rail limits the engine from being offset more.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Here s the way I look at things in my older more confused and cloudy mind. Over the years I have deffinitley flip flopped on a lot of views. Why do we make rules to make ourselves exclusive to ourselves? Why would one want to outlaw one drive system over another. Chain inside the frame rail or no quick change allowed. Sure we can always bring up cost of doing something, or safety. But really what we are just trying to do is to make those people with a little different approach to accomplishing the same goal not eligible to compete against us.

Their are young guys out there like Bob that have raced T/Q's and being people that like to push the envelope a little might decide to bolt a 1000cc motor into an old TQ frame and come race with us. If we are so smug in our idea that chain is superior why wouldn't we want to give a guy with a little different car the chance to prove us wrong. Or for that matter why would the T/Q groups not allow a 600cc upright to race with them.

I guess the TQ guys could say we have all race cars we need now so "NO MORE NON CONFORMING RACERS ALLOWED". That is always subject to change. Can the 600cc and 1000cc uprights say the same thing?

What is wrong with a little more competition?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by Bradleyracing86:
That's not the main lower DAD.. The main lower takes an upward slope to prevent the frame rail from dragging.

The left firewall tube which is connected to the main frame rail limits the engine from being offset more.

Andy

Just another rule that really doesn't need to be there?

What ties into the rear torsion rack on the left side?

Lets not make life more complicated than it already is.

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Gee...........I can remember not that long ago when the midget guys said NO CHAIN drives allowed. What was your response then DAD? Did you attempt to enlighten them too? I realize there are a few organizations combining drive systems now but there are only a few. Times changed and people's opinions changed. Maybe that will happen with this deal but why don't we give some of this stuff a chance. Everyone at the meeting agreed we needed to start somewhere........this is that "somewhere." Either people can accept it or reject it. Their choice. Everyone also agreed EVERYTHING is subject to review at year's end.

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Originally Posted by DAD:
Here s the way I look at things in my older more confused and cloudy mind. Over the years I have deffinitley flip flopped on a lot of views. Why do we make rules to make ourselves exclusive to ourselves? Why would one want to outlaw one drive system over another. Chain inside the frame rail or no quick change allowed. Sure we can always bring up cost of doing something, or safety. But really what we are just trying to do is to make those people with a little different approach to accomplishing the same goal not eligible to compete against us.

Their are young guys out there like Bob that have raced T/Q's and being people that like to push the envelope a little might decide to bolt a 1000cc motor into an old TQ frame and come race with us. If we are so smug in our idea that chain is superior why wouldn't we want to give a guy with a little different car the chance to prove us wrong. Or for that matter why would the T/Q groups not allow a 600cc upright to race with them.

I guess the TQ guys could say we have all race cars we need now so "NO MORE NON CONFORMING RACERS ALLOWED". That is always subject to change. Can the 600cc and 1000cc uprights say the same thing?

What is wrong with a little more competition?

Honest Dad himself:6::6:

DAD, if you are refering to me, thanks for the "young guy" comment, I do wish I fit that billing! At 76, I am young I guess, as young as I can feel anyway, but I do remember being more agile. You know the old saying, be carefull what you wish for, and I do like to "mess" around a bit, I never did like "stock" classes, costs to much to keep them stock, and with these motors, there isn't much you can do, and keep them stock, if it were me, and it isn't, I'd look in the plug hole, and cc the bore and stroke, and if it was "close", that's about as far as I would go, there is little space that already isn't occupied in that cylinder, and believe me, I've tested it, so aftermarket pistons to me, would be OK, some of the stock pistons were cast, and some were forged, I'd pick the forged for strength, and the cast for speed, and as far as cams go, you can get about as much Hp just by increasing the intake clearances as anything, there's only so much you can change them, without tagging the pistons, so maybe measuring the cam, or degreeing them isn't such a big deal, remember, for every rule you put in, ya gotta be able to back it up with tech proceedures, and everyone that's ever been the "man", you know how much fun that is. As far as the chain vs QC drive, in your case, I'd stay with the chain, it is a lot simpler, maybe, but with the clutch and all that stuff, it's really kinda impractical to try and get the engine where the rules say it needs to be, and still fit in a driveshaft where it is supposed to be, just a lot of work, and expense, when it isn't necessary. Now, if you had the car count, you might be able to add another class, that ran the QC like we do, and no tranny, but again, it'd take a while to build the car count, and you already have places you can run together, so why complicate it, and, not to step on any toes, but it is easier to maintain, and be able to do your own work, on a chain drive car, I have a complete machine shop at my disposal, so if I need to cut a case, or make any "special" parts, I just do it, in MY shop, so I don't have to pay to have it done, just my time. I build my own chassis, and make all my specialty parts, some stuff it's cheaper to buy, than make, that's why I stick with full midget parts where I can, or if it's something that I sell several of, I make patterns, and have them cast, then machine them, lots quicker than billet. I know you didn't ask for my input, but I couldn't resist the implication about being young, and pushing the envelope, I don't push it, I'm very careful when I do something, that's why I like our engine rules, we got a box we can work out of, and it gives us plenty of room to try things, without being a cheater! Bob!

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

the picture of the orange car looks legal to me

Re: National lightning sprint meeting
 

Phil

Just poking a little fun, I know what you were trying to do with the frame rail rule, but why not let some people experiment. I realize it was sure not your intentions to make the Hench cars illegal, but that is how some people would see the rule. All you need is a guy wanting to win any way he can even if it means using a rule to do it with. It has happened to me and probably you several times. Better me bring it up now instead of some jerk just after a feature race win. Maybe this stuff is best left to PM's I guess?

That not long ago I think it was about 1969 or so when USAC banned chain, drive and that was because of a friend of mine trying to make a Full Midght just like an oversized 1/4 midget with a rear engine VW.

I try to do these posts with a little humor sometimes like Andy says wrestling with the pigs. If something comes out of them like bore scopes or better ways to tec motors that's even better. I told one guy that I try to play Devil's Advocate. There are a lot of what if's out there, and even more, What if we do it this way ideas. Your job is to decide what works best for the group, and never dismiss even the most lame brained suggestion that comes across, their might be just a glimmer of truth in their somewhere.

Heck I like your rules, especially giving us dry sump people a reprieve from ourselves "THANKS".



Honest Dad himself:6::6: