Im not a owner but I can see a lot of Don's concerns and claims but one fact is.

Owners don't start bringing their cars to the tracks, there isn't going to be midget racing much longer in OH/IND period. Im at the point of not bothering to go to one, you don't know if there will be 2 or 22 and the latter isn't too respectable for a BIG MIDGET SHOW. The Organizations schedualing against each other, The owners refusing to run unless............................ WHATEVER.

BYE, BYE FANS!!!!!!!!! so the only way your going to get a chance to race is your own back gate.

Be realistic Don, You know it as well that without a major sponsor, Your not going to come close to breaking even let alone make a dime. I like a lot of the things you do, like putting potentially very good drivers like Beauchamp and others in a good ride. But the fans need to see more or they won't be there to support it at all.

It all appears as. "We want 5g to win 500 to start", but the count to support it or even build a fan base to have it is going away.

Don,

I think the only question at this point is - What are you going to do to correct this problem?

Regards,

Rob Keelan

Nobody's going to go broke doing what you suggest Don. It's really just a shell game anyway isn't it? I mean, is there really any difference if a purse is $50 less across the board and drivers and one owner gets their $25 pit pass free?

Is $1450 to win and $200 to start vs. $1500 and $250 really going to change the economics of your racing or my racing operation? Are you more likely to show up at the former rather than the latter?

Frankly that's what I view tow money as... My pit pass reimbursement if I have a bad night.

Knoxville does a deal where I think 5 people per car can purchase a reduced priced pit pass. If I recall it's $15 instead of $25. I kind of like that. But it's still just money coming out of the same pot. I'm sure if they charged the full $25 per pit pass there would be a few more hundred dollars to throw into the purse at the end of the night.

Serious questions... the answer very well might be Yes. Would more cars show up if each car got 4 free pit passes and $100 to start instead of $200?

I doubt any promoter told you his costs and I know what EMTs make, show me a link to the thread that an announcer stated his pay. I'm sorry you can't handle the TRUTH. All you do is either ***** about what it costs you or brag about beating up a bunch of minisprints on an 1/8th mile track. I am pretty sure that the day you started racing you knew you had to pay to play, you and only you chose to do so. If you're so unhappy then you have 2 choices, QUIT or since you're so smart and claim to know so much and supposedly are such a great music promoter then YOU should either rent/buy a track and promote OR start a series. Of course you will do none of the above, just get on here and make yourself look like a bitter person who is afraid to go race USAC or big paying shows, the same big paying shows you ***** don't exsist.....enjoy your hatred of racing, I'll enjoy my love of the hobby. And I think everything I stated pretty much is on topic, but then again I'm responding to you and figured you were keeping to the topic.....lol

If the midget orgs ever decided that they were going to do something about the rediculous costs of running a midget team, this discussion may not need to take place. Case in Point:

MIDGET AND SPRINT CAR MAG OCT 2010 page 25

Metric Racing engines in Tulsa, OK

Ecotec 2.4 liter midget engine COMPLETE $10,995.

I've printed this before and here goes again: I have a fresh midget engine in my garage that I bought that was rebuilt before the sale and the price tag for the rebuild was $7600.

Now.. There's not much difference between $7600 and $10,995.

I am well aware of many that come on here praising the Esslinger XT engine for $23,000. sorry... that's way too much for owners to be spending on an engine for the purses paid.

Bottom line, if we can buy a brand new midget engine for a little more than a rebuild.... this is a no brainer. What part of cheap do the midget orgs not understand?????

---------- Post added at 05:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

Sounds to me like you're a bit jealous, racerdog, of my track record. We have won many, many times on Big tracks and small tracks with more midget orgs than many of the cars that run the big box shows. Sorry to ruin your day.

For your information, you may want to check the entry list for the big midget show this weekend and you'll find that I have plenty of company as far as not participating. Since you brought it up, you may want to carefully see who's racing in St. Louis this weekend. Just reporting the facts. About half of the St. Louis area drivers/cars have elected to stay home according to the list and according to the list many of the really great St. Louis drivers, like at least one past champion, are staying away. And there are probably 250-300 midgets in a 500 mile radius of St. Louis. Most of them won't be there either. Again just reporting the facts based on the published entry list. Care to explain why?

Lets see...

Announcer shows up at 3pm and goes home at 11pm = 8 hrs 150.00/8=$18.75/hr

Driver shows up at 6pm runs 5 hot laps, 2 qualifing laps, 10 lap heat and 25 lap main on 1/4 mi track (avg time working figuring 15sec/lap=10.5 minutes + push of line up laps,etc. we'll call it 15 minutes of work). If he gets $50 divide that by the time spent working it comes out to $200/hour.

Car owner gets his wallet out for a pit pass = 30sec, wrenches on the car a bit - hopefully not a lot - maybe works for 30 minutes total for the evening so if he gets $50 that is $100/hour.

Looks way better than the announcer dont even think about how underpaid the guy is that has to man the gate where the cars come on the track, he gets there at 4, gets pelted by dirt and mud all night, sometimes yelled at by drivers and car owners all for 20 or 30 bucks - that's about $4/hour...

You can't be serious. Do you work at Disneyland?

I clicked on the thread wondering who would be slamming Don today only to read a very good discussion between several people on the topic of pit passes. There is no doubt something needs to be done on both sides of the fence to help promote (save) open wheel racing as we know it. This is not a slam to anyone just saying it is nice to see a civil discussion trying to solve a problem. I know that without Josh working two jobs and help from sponsors,friends and fans we would have to park our race car for good.

Jerry #66j
stida.com

---------- Post added at 04:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Never Mind

Jerry #66j

I totally understand where Don is coming from.

So how can the dilema be fixed?

I wonder how a race track ownership "Co-op" would work?
Much like a farmer owned co-op you see in ag states.

The car owners and/or interested parties would take part in the ownership.
You could have overall ownership shares and/or yearly shares also.

Instead of running for a purse that is a fraction of the nights revenue,
you would be racing for a much bigger take. The proceeds of the night paid to the shareholders thus helping finance partners racing. Figure out ways too actively increase purses.
With the number of midget, sprint and champ car owners in Indiana alone, why couldn't something like this work?
If this was successful it would help with purses everywhere, because you could show the financial model and purse model could work.
If you build something special you could definately get advertisiers.

Example: Build a big half mile-quarter mile combo track about 15 miles or so south of Indy. Advertise well. Build stands for 20k people to start with. If you could incease purse size plus know you were making money from the event it's self, could create car counts that would be really big.
People would probably come to see car counts of 50-70 cars.
Have many more midget races and combine them with sprint shows.
Also have champ car nights as many of the ownership group would benefit from that also.

I think it would be worth examining a business case for something like this.

When are you going to start, Don?

This discussion should have been over when TAMMY GUNDAKER, THE PROMOTER OF TRI-CITY SPEEDWAY posted this:

I noticed Don ignored this the first time around as well. I'm sure he'll ignore it again. No other track that USAC, MSCS, local tracks, or POWRi run at charge multiple pit passes for driving multiple divisions. As with many of Don's discussions, this too is irrelevant.