But my point is... If suddenly next year my motor is obsolete by rule and I'm sitting on a perfectly good and fresh motor or two I now have to spend $11k just to race... knowing that I can't get anything out of my current engines. At that point I'm just going to cut my losses with this midget and sell a roller.

How do you propose to transition from 350+ HP motors to 250 HP motors and maintain a car count among those people who can't afford to make the switch and are sitting on an otherwise perfectly good and fresh motor? Sincere question because you might have a perfectly valid answer.

I have no doubt that given time the ASCS2 with the ecotech is going to build some car count in the Plains states - especially with Hahn's backing as it's been done before with sprint cars. But I'd much prefer to find a rules package for an DOHC modern production based engine that puts it closer to the 300-325 HP range. At that point you can jump off into one and actually be competitive on some short tracks and slicked off tracks against the current crop of engines.

And how are you going to make a rules package to keep people from getting exotic with the base DOHC ecotech type motor? Has Iaia gotten the most power out of this configuration that is possible? Doubtful. I bet with another $100k of R&D and exotic parts you can put 50+ more HP in one of those. So, unless it's going to be a focus style single manufacturer, sealed engine type of deal across the country then you really haven't solved much. You've just bought a new puzzle to throw money at.

And if HP doesn't matter, is there really that much difference between a 250 HP ecotech and a 180HP Focus motor? Plenty of those sitting around. What's your argument why we should stop at the Ecotech instead of just going all the way down to a Focus only rule? All of your points would be equally valid. Which of your points in support of going to an ecotech isn't equally as valid in going to a Focus?


As it stands, despite the occasional success that is cited, a 250HP engine can't very well transition against 350+ hp motors. What I don't want to have happen is what my current sprint car predicament is... Own one motor to travel West and another with more HP and different rules to travel East.

This discussion is a long way from discussing multiple pit pass charges. Pretty tied up the rest of the day. We'll save it for another day, Don.

Just a stupid fan here (we never get respect on IOW), I say let 'em all run and use rev limiters or chips or restrictors on the big engines to match 'em up and let 'em all race together. I could be completely wrong though.

I started the thread and the underlying theme is the cost of maintaining a midget whether it be a pit pass or an engine rebuild so it's all good on this topic.

I may not be doing a very good job of explaining myself and it may be that you need to call me to really understand what I'm talking about.

Let's try this again. I think that everyone can agree that midget racing needs to be reinvented and a clean sheet of paper brought out. Yes, I'm well aware that there are a small minority of car owners that want to keep things as they are and most of them have deep pockets and can afford anything you want to lay down on the table. Midget racing is being controlled by a few.. it's like the tail wagging the dog and barriers have been thown up protecting special interests and money or political favors being negotiated. We need to get beyond that. How that happens, I don't know. It may be that the sport of midget racing has to get so much on the ropes that the orgs are forced to do something. We are already headed down the hill as it is and it's only in time when the judgement day arrives. Now back to my point.

There is not a person on this earth or in outer space or the moon or any other place that can justify keeping the exotic engines going that we have today and I own four of them so I'm deeply involved it this also. Now... the Ecotech engine or it's equivalent is being built with over the counter parts (ASFIK), selling for $10,000+ and it's performance has been somewhere between a Focus and an exotic engine. That's been proven in CA already. The engine reps say it's good for 100 races. And I believe it has a self starter.

Let's now calculate the cost of racing one of these engines over a period of 5 years as opposed to an exotic engine and let's assume you already own an exotic engine that needs a rebuild. Furthermore, let's take a figure that I heard for a Slinger rebuild @ $4400 plus shipping at $1000. That's around $5500 so far. And let's assume that rebuild is good for 15 races. The car owner model runs 30 races in a season, for example POWRi. @ 30 races, we are now up to $11,000 in one year's time for the exotic engine rebuild. For 5 years, that would be $55,000. Are we good so far?

Now let's look at the Ecotech costs. Initial investment is $10,995 rounding off to $11,000. The model car owner in theory according to the engine reps will go for 100 races. That's approximately 3 1/2 years @30 races per year. And let's assume that since it uses over the counter parts that a rebuild will be less than the exotic engine. Let's put the rebuild at $2500 and that amount would not be spent until after 3 1/2 years and would last beyond the 5 year window that we are talking about.

When it's all said and done the exotic engine over a period of 5 years will cost you $55,000 to maintain. The Ecotech will have cost you over the same time period $13,500.

That is a savings of $41,500. Now... Maybe you should stop someone on the street and ask them if they would rather pay $13,500 or $55,000 for an item that basically does the same thing.

AND... furthermore, if the package has a self starter, the promoters will be jumping for joy that they don't have to deal and hire with push trucks. Ask any promoter in the country if they want to do away with them and see what they say. I love watching the push trucks but it's time for them to go. And.. if the promoter doesn't have to pay the push truck guys ( and BYW, I heard from one promoter that he has to pay them $$$$$$$$$$) maybe, just maybe, the drivers/owners won't have to pay the promoters to entertain his fans.

AND.... along with all of this, the tire deal/tire costs/compound adjustment/wheel size needs to be visited ASAP.

I make pretty good money and pay my bills announcing. I think ill have to keep doing it.

The problem that I see Don is that you continually state a premise that everyone agrees with... "Costs are excessive"

But when it comes time to crack the nut, you say:
So, what I've been trying to get you to do is get past the fluff of stuff we all can agree on..
1. Are engines too expensive given the return? YES
2. Would it be great to have a $10,000 engine that lasts 100 nights and be competitive? YES
3. Are more cars and larger car counts important for the sports future? YES

You are arguing with yourself when you raise these points because the rest of us totally agree. But when it comes time to solve the problem of how do you get from point A to point B we find we are all in agreement there as well with the answer being, "I don't know."

I'm the first to admit that I don't have all of the answers. Heck, I don't have ANY answer. But at times on here Don, you throw around an obvious premise as if it is the answer or some great revelation without offering a real, hard core, workable solution.

I'm serious when I say... Don, show us the way. Give me a road map and time frame on how this sport is going to get from $30,000 10 night engines to $10,000 100 night ones. Enough pointing out the problems. We all get them. Let's hear the solution... A concrete workable solution that gets us from A to B.

I think the first step in that plan would be for you to go out and buy an Ecotech and start running it. In fact, in all honesty I'm looking for another little Chevy. Sell me your best horse and use that money to buy an Ecotech and then it will cost you nothing.

I would honestly like to see what it does in a great car like the Don Moore 10. If you did well, you might actually be taking a first step in convincing the rest of us to come along for the ride - and thereby be the one who saved the sport from ourselves. But I don't personally think you will bring a knife to a gun fight... until the rest of us are just carrying knives as well. The path to disarmament, Don?

On my way to Granite now... without a midget. Ran out of time. I need a more reliable engine... lol.

The ASCS Eco-Tec with the ECU only made about 150 hp with around 130 pounds of torque.

With the new Engler injection; the Ascs Motor(Notice I didn't mention Reveloution Eco-Tec) makes about 180hp with about 175 pounds of torque.

Why is 21 "Midgets" (Combined classes) at Logansport a good car count and 19 USAC Midgets at Eldora a bad one? How are two cars the seperating line?

Why doesn't anyone complain when the local sprint races "only" get 21 to 25 cars at a track?

Combined classes or what have you....whatever. If thats what people feel it takes to get cars and have a promotor feel secure enough to book a race...then go for it.


Hey Don....didn't the rebuild on the MoPar you bought also include a new Engler injection? That is a one time fee and not a true indication of the motors rebuild cost.

By the way....I am one who feels the sport has never been better in terms of competition. Instead of 3-6 cars capable of winning, you have as many as 12-17 per night capable of winning.

As far as what the person on the street thinks...why do I care? I sacrafice(have sacraficed) to do what I want to do and spend my money on as do they.

Only; I have(had) racecars and they had a boat or horses or McMansion or Theater Room or kids involved in traveling sports etc...all of which are extremely expensive and seem crazy to those who don't find that an appealing past time.

If you have a race car, find a place where you want to race it. If you can't find one, start one. If you don't start one, sell it and buy a car in a class that fits. If no class fits; sell it and find something that you like.

Thats not directed at Don....just owners in general.

People want a "fix" and an "answer". They never find one because there isn't one. There are just options and opportunities.

Yes, I'll eventually make it out the door... But one more thing just occurred to me on the original topic of this thread...

I did some really rough estimating of the total weekend purse at Tri City and some rough math on the expected back gate.

I figure...

Total midget purse over 3 nights totals about $55,000, maybe more.
Total sprint purse over 3 nights totals about $25,000.

That's a total purse of about $80,000. Plus at least $20k of overhead in insurance, sanction fees, power, labor, advertising, etc, etc.

So lets call it an even $100,000 to put on this show.

Backgate:

Midgets: 50 midgets x 4 pit passes per x 3 nights x $35 = $21,000 plus $7500 in "entry fees" = $28,500 total back gate from midgets. That's about half of the $55,000 midget purse. So for every dollar the midgets contribute, they will get $2 back collectively.

Sprints: Same kind of math, estimating 30 cars for 3 nights = $12,600 (no entry fee). Again, about 50% of the total purse.

So they are getting about $40,000 out of the back gate in a show that's going to cost at least $100,000. They are counting on a $60,000 front gate and concession to make this work.

Do that same math with your typical POWRi or similar show and you will see that this event is exactly the opposite of what Don claims it is. This is a front gate show. A $60,000+ gamble that enough people will walk through the grandstands to make it work.

Reading your post gives me heartburn. Its what all promotors do each week, gamble on massive dollars. I've been on both sides, and being a promotor is much more of a gamble, at least when i raced i knew going in what i could win or lose, being a promotor you have no idea what you'll do for the weekend, you could make a little bit of money or you could lose alot of money. Thank God i love what i do.
Have a great weekend everyone and i hope to see you at the races.

Actually, Saturday's A Main alone pays $58,000. Looks like the preliminary nights have an A Main purse of just over $8,000. That puts us at nearly $75,000 just for Midget A Main purses.

I'd say the total purse for this weekend is somewhere in the $110,000 to $120,000 range, adding in both divisions on the card...

I stepped away from the computer for a few hours and I see you guys have been hard at work posting various thoughts on here. Let me try to address a few of them.

1. To Baue.. I took the time to research the rebuild sheet on my fresh engine. NO... Engler injection was not part of the $7607.00 cost to rebuild the power plant. So my $7607.00 stands valid. I hope this puts this issue of the cost of a rebuild to rest. Yes, engines do cost that much and more to rebuild.

2. To Baue.. You can list all the statistics you want on here about engines but..as I pointed out... Fans could care less about what an engine does. They are interested in good competitive racing with a lot of action. I've seen plenty of that with quarter midgets and those are tiny engines in comparison. This topic about what fans look for in a race is documented on IOW several months ago. Post after post was about competitive racing, not about how fast a midget goes around the track.

3. To Baue.. Fans today want to see lots of cars at a race track. Read the posts on here. It's a huge topic. and, fans expect a lot of cars to show up for a USAC race at Eldora. Read the posts again. It didn't happen. For an open competition race like US24 in the middle of nowhere with 21 cars present, that's pretty good. This was a first time for that event... while USAC has been at it since 1956.

4. Again to Baue... Yes, there probably are more cars capable of winning a race today. The number of multimillionaire teams has taken over the sport. They're all trying to out spend each other and this type of activity is causing the sport to take on $$$$$$$$$$$$$ stigma. Read the posts on MM regarding the Cheese state midgets. I didn't write what they have to say, but they're saying the same thing I've been saying. I guess I have plenty of company agreeing with me.

5. To Bloard... I hate communicating with someone on IOW that doesn't tell who they are, especially when you get down and personal with my race team. I take full responsibility for what I write. Not many are willing to do that. All you have to do is go back and read any thread that I've been heavily involved with and read all the insulting and degrading remarks directed toward me. That's why you hear from very few owners on this web site. They don't want to put up with the stalkers, nonsense and micromanaging of their race team.

6. To Bloard and others...... I started this thread to have a general discussion about the topic and the possible effects of it across the country. It's a general discussion, not about one promoter or promotion but promotions of racing everywhere. Again, some of you want to turn it into an assault on my personal management of my race team. My race team has nothing to do with the topic, so get over it. The fact that I have race cars has nothing to do with the general discussion. The discussion is about a broad spectrum, much like a sociology class where they study large bodies of society and their behavior.

7. To Bloard... I'm well aware of the purse at the Illinois event. I was there two years ago with my number 10 when they had over 60 cars and a huge participation from the POWRi regulars. Over half those owners went home with $30 for their effort. I live over 500 miles from that promotion. I made a decision not to participate. I see from the latest entry list that there are about 12 or so POWRi regulars that are racing there. That's about 1/3 of the cars that show up for one of their shows and they only have to drive a few miles to participate............

8. And finally, in answer to getting something done about the midget issue.. I'm only one person. I don't belong to any club or org. I'm way out of the loop, about 300-500 miles out of the loop. I'm one of only two race teams in the US that travel a long distance on a regular basis to race. The other is my good friend Mark Bush who travels from Atlanta, Georgia. I've presented my points of view on the subject. Take it for what it's worth. I'm blasted for it everytime I write about it. I won't be solving the midget problem from my office here in Ohio. Not going to happen. I outlined a plan regarding the engines in this thread. It's basically the same thing I heard from Kevin Miller many months ago on Racin' With D.O. I haven't heard a thing about it since then. Once all of you people stop looking for the trees and start looking at the forest, you may get somewhere. Until then, good luck. If you're in denial about the state of midget racing, try this: Get out a photo of yourself from 10 years ago. Do you look better, worse or the same? Now do some research regarding midgets 10 years ago. You can find all kinds of race results on the internet. Is the state of midget racing better, worse or the same?