Part of a discussion on another board concerned building 410 engines without all the trick Outlaw type lightweight parts for non-wing racing. The conclusion seemed to be that you could build a heavier 410 for about the same price as a good 360.
Any insight on this?

"Wesmar, I know all of the big teams want lightweight stuff but have you ever thought about putting together a heavier motor and offering it at a cheaper price? Dynos the same but heavier.That would be a great motor for people starting out or on a tight budget."

I dont see it happening the "big horse motors" are big horsest becuase of lite wieght parts and to much money! now to curb this you need a spec motor somthing similar to what th are running in the crate late models.

They said

A lighter rotating mass is gonna dyno better than a heavier one all things else the same. A heavier block now wouldn't change the dyno.

Troy Link has been running a *Ernie Elliott * Ford for over 13 years, Its heavier and on most tracks I see no loss of horspower over the Gearte's Shavers ECT, In fact he pulls em in the straights expecially on rough or slick tracks. I guarantee there are no Titanium parts in it he does the rebuilds himself and Like the 360 discussion, Other than track record attempts there is no difference in the racing.

A big Missnomer about Shatz is that he uses the best and latest and greatest of everything, No Doubt he's got the power but hes using a 7 year old J&J design chassis, Affco shocks with no adjusters and still whoops those with superior. Just like Kinsers *Dominant years* Shatz isn't new to this by a long shot although Steve had success earlier in his career, There's not substitute for experience and setup.

Weight is a advantage on Rough and Slick tracks, Only on the tackies are the lightweight, super high HP motors and parts. In 2006 the two heaviest cars at the Burg by far were the front runners and season champ and runner up. Beaber/Link, While not always *Walking the field* they were constistanly up front even among the best.

Chuck, who sees no reason you couldn't control cost without being non competitive and those spec engines/heads and other things save money in rebuilds. Like Jeff Swindell said, A full season instead of 4-6 races which NW would be about 8-12 races.

true! but you wont find a cast iron block that will go the bore size that u would need to make the same horse. I do know that after marked steel block is heavier but will be heavy enough to get the wieght your looking for.

Chuck,

We typically get 20+ races out of our engines before rebuild. We did blow an engine in California this year with 26 races on it but that was because we lost a driveline qualifying and tagged the valves at 9400 RPM.

There is a very interesting article in this months issue of Circle Track regarding engine component weight and how it affects drivability.

Rob Hoffman

Thanks for that Rob, It's been over ten years since I really knew anything about what you could get with what you had. Used to be able to get a full season locally on a motor. It's just nice to know that you can still get a pretty good amount of racing on em before freshening.

Sometimes I oughta just keep my mouth shut but do you see a market for a spec program while maybe leaving MSCS, USAC, KISS and other big shows 410 non governed?
Chuck

It's the compression and RPM's that kill the motors. Compression knocks out the bottom end and RPM's are hell on valvetrain components.

I know one local (Midwest) sprint team that is finally freshening their motor this winter after nearly 50 shows. They used some nice lightweight bottom end parts and kept the compression at a reasonable level. This team was never lacking for horsepower to run up front almost every night out.

I would have to believe that a lighter weight crank is easier on the block as the lower reciprocal weight would stress the main webs less.

Another factor to consider with a higher overall weight motor is the crash energy that heavier unit carries. I haven't seen near as many motorplates torn out in a crash since the motors have become lighter.
The motor plates haven't gotten any heavier or stronger in this period.
Less mass = less collision energy.

Just my .03 cents. Inflation hits everything sooner or later.:thumbsdown:

I agree a heavier motor on a rough or slick track will be as fast as the light motors. Unfortunately the importance of the light motors shows during qualifying when the track is sticky and can take all the power you have. This is especially true in WoO competition where a bad qualifying attempt will bury you for the night. There is one sanctioning group (http://www.nosasprints.com/) which has a bit of a compromise for the engine weight debate. I believe their rules are setup for steel based 410's but allow for aluminum blocks if they bolt on weight in specific areas of the motor plate. This allows people to run cheaper steel motors and also allows those who choose to run at other tracks with open 410 rules the easy switch of unbolting the weight.