Engine question?

6/22/09, 1:20 AM

I realize that all these Sprints are running the aluminum block/head high dollar motors. My understanding is that they run about 35-40,000 new and you can find a used one for about 20,000. I am curious as to why the Sprints/Late Models just don't pass a rule requiring all cars to use one of these Dart cast iron blocks.(there are others available) They are similar to the 400 blocks from 1970-80 era except they have been improved substantially for oil and water flow and the 4 bolt main caps are beefed up and splayed. They run about $1500 and a top of the line "new" motor runs less than $10,000 with Alum/heads and Lunati bottom end. Would this go a long way to bringing cars back to the tracks? I know there is a scora series that requires steel blocks but the purse seems to take a plunge somewhat. I don't think anyone could tell the difference if all Indiana tracks were running these.

spicoli · 6/22/09, 3:19 PM

Every cast iron block I ever ran cracked somehwere, then it's junk. I've seen aluminum blocks get the botom blown out of them, and be repaired and are still running strong.

Because they can't easily be fixed, I'll never run an iron block again.

Too bad those iron block series don't have a rule like they used to, where aluminum block cars had to carry extra weight. Might fill out the fields.

Tony74 · 6/22/09, 3:22 PM

Steel blocks are cheaper to buy upfront but if you crack or damage the block it can rarely be fixed, where aluminum blocks can be welded up re-machined several times. There are also alot of used aluminum blocks out there for good prices that can be fixed and raced again.

Larryoracing · 6/22/09, 6:01 PM

All the answers were excellent, but I just feel that the statis quo would not allow it.

On the same note as above, there are steel blocks and there are better ones. Some of the steel aftermarket blocks are not as strong as others and I think the steel blocks in the 1500 dollar rage fall in that category.

Larry "O" and good question.

slide22 · 6/23/09, 1:02 AM

The only real way I see to cut cost is to have less wide rear tires. Have you seen these things? They're massive. Take some of that rubber away and you won't need the $45,000 engine. Look what smaller tires does for e-mods and late models. Use Lawrenceburg's tire rule so you can run the American Racer or Hoosier and you're in business

old timer · 6/23/09, 8:45 PM

Good question but here is the reason steel blocks will not work. One of our blocks is dart steel that was prepared by a well know shop and the price including new block was 4,250.00 now we didn't buy it new but someone did. So if you pay good purses then all the big boys will be spending that.

dant · 6/23/09, 9:55 PM

Compare apples and apples.....the differance in price between al. vrs. steel is what $2500 , a $40000 dollar al. block motor would cost you $2500 less with a steel block...block ain't the costliest part ..close to 900 hp cost $ ...tire rule is the answer I agree

slide22 · 6/24/09, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dant

Compare apples and apples.....the differance in price between al. vrs. steel is what $2500 , a $40000 dollar al. block motor would cost you $2500 less with a steel block...block ain't the costliest part ..close to 900 hp cost $ ...tire rule is the answer I agree

I know this is an idea thats way out there, but set a minimum weight for just the engine. Could eliminate some of the crazy materials and machining being done to these things.

Of course it would be a pain to pull everyone's engine out and weigh them...

Larryoracing · 6/24/09, 6:13 AM

Hey Slide22,

Your a genius. But even if the wt rule was 2000lbs for the whole car I still don't think you would get 30 cars.
But if you got 50 I think you were on to something. I really feel nobody has any money to go racing.

And until we have a time of rapid growth, nobody will be racing.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani

P.S. Now that I have said that, you will see an emergence of racing where the cost is really cheap.
Like hobby

stocks or some type of racing where it don't cost anything to build the car, race the car
or get it to the track.

dant · 6/25/09, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slide22

I know this is an idea thats way out there, but set a minimum weight for just the engine. Could eliminate some of the crazy materials and machining being done to these things.

Of course it would be a pain to pull everyone's engine out and weigh them...

slide22,you looked pretty good with your first post [you must have read that in another thread]....heres what will work to get the cost down and the car count back up and growing....smaller harder tire on the RR,no cockpit adj.,1500 lbs car and driver min.....reasonable purse [not top heavy] and tow money ....the motor situation will balance itself cause 650 to 700 hp will be all the tire will hold..........BTW what crazy materials/machining are you reffering to..they do the same basic engine prep they did 20 yrs ago..some of the hand work is just CNC'ed now

6/22/09, 1:20 AM	#1 Engine question?
aceace Posts: n/a	I realize that all these Sprints are running the aluminum block/head high dollar motors. My understanding is that they run about 35-40,000 new and you can find a used one for about 20,000. I am curious as to why the Sprints/Late Models just don't pass a rule requiring all cars to use one of these Dart cast iron blocks.(there are others available) They are similar to the 400 blocks from 1970-80 era except they have been improved substantially for oil and water flow and the 4 bolt main caps are beefed up and splayed. They run about $1500 and a top of the line "new" motor runs less than $10,000 with Alum/heads and Lunati bottom end. Would this go a long way to bringing cars back to the tracks? I know there is a scora series that requires steel blocks but the purse seems to take a plunge somewhat. I don't think anyone could tell the difference if all Indiana tracks were running these.

6/22/09, 3:19 PM	#2 Re: Engine question?
spicoli Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1,870	Every cast iron block I ever ran cracked somehwere, then it's junk. I've seen aluminum blocks get the botom blown out of them, and be repaired and are still running strong. Because they can't easily be fixed, I'll never run an iron block again. Too bad those iron block series don't have a rule like they used to, where aluminum block cars had to carry extra weight. Might fill out the fields.

6/22/09, 3:22 PM	#3 Re: Engine question?
Tony74 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 945	Steel blocks are cheaper to buy upfront but if you crack or damage the block it can rarely be fixed, where aluminum blocks can be welded up re-machined several times. There are also alot of used aluminum blocks out there for good prices that can be fixed and raced again.

6/22/09, 6:01 PM	#4 Re: Engine question?
Larryoracing Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 380	All the answers were excellent, but I just feel that the statis quo would not allow it. On the same note as above, there are steel blocks and there are better ones. Some of the steel aftermarket blocks are not as strong as others and I think the steel blocks in the 1500 dollar rage fall in that category. Larry "O" and good question.

6/23/09, 1:02 AM	#5 Re: Engine question?
slide22 Senior Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 350	The only real way I see to cut cost is to have less wide rear tires. Have you seen these things? They're massive. Take some of that rubber away and you won't need the $45,000 engine. Look what smaller tires does for e-mods and late models. Use Lawrenceburg's tire rule so you can run the American Racer or Hoosier and you're in business

6/23/09, 8:45 PM	#6 Re: Engine question?
old timer Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 366	Good question but here is the reason steel blocks will not work. One of our blocks is dart steel that was prepared by a well know shop and the price including new block was 4,250.00 now we didn't buy it new but someone did. So if you pay good purses then all the big boys will be spending that.

6/23/09, 9:55 PM	#7 Re: Engine question?
dant Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 191	Compare apples and apples.....the differance in price between al. vrs. steel is what $2500 , a $40000 dollar al. block motor would cost you $2500 less with a steel block...block ain't the costliest part ..close to 900 hp cost $ ...tire rule is the answer I agree

6/24/09, 6:13 AM	#9 Re: Engine question?
Larryoracing Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 380	Hey Slide22, Your a genius. But even if the wt rule was 2000lbs for the whole car I still don't think you would get 30 cars. But if you got 50 I think you were on to something. I really feel nobody has any money to go racing. And until we have a time of rapid growth, nobody will be racing. Sincerely, Larry Otani P.S. Now that I have said that, you will see an emergence of racing where the cost is really cheap. Like hobby stocks or some type of racing where it don't cost anything to build the car, race the car or get it to the track.