[Al Soran]

Can a guy be competitive in a sprint car that was made for running a wing on top at a non-winged venue? Are there differences in how the frames are made from say the front motor plate to the jacobs ladder that will make a significant difference in how well it works without a wing?

[Al Soran]

And....if you were going to run just one 1/4 mile pretty flat and typically slick dirt track, what would be your chassis of choice, and why (four-bar, five-bar, coil front, coil with anti sway bar, etc)?

[Larryoracing]

Hey Al,

I'm goin' to have a little fun with your post. Someone of intelligence will "chime"
in and give you the information you need.

One thing I think is a big advantage to non-wing racer who buys parts off
a WoO Wing racer is the motor.

1) So if you want to have a good advantage over your local non-wing driver,
buy a World Class, Kick AZZ 410 motor from a top WoO team Wing Racer and stick that motor in your frame of choice and you will have a competitive advantage over your non-wing competitors.

2) There are lot of WoO drivers that drive into Big, Non-wing USAC/or whatever
races and kick everybody tail with thier wing frames. So it's not really
the frame, but the top notch equipment, tons of racing experience...ie..
100 WoO races per year and knowing how to set up the chassis for
any track and any racing condition.


3) About the only thing I heard at our local race track with a Non-wing Maxim
was the frame was 2" shorter than a standard wing frame, I think the non-
wing frame was wider than a wing frame and possible the engine was set
back a little bit more compared to a Wing Maxim Frame.


4) There are a lot of guys that take a wing car, take the wing off, set it
up and are very competitive with any Non-Wing Frame/non-wing driver.

a) Personally I think the Wing drivers have better, lighter equipment
and are use to driving faster than a non-wing drivers. So the Wing
driver is use to driving 110 mph and comes to the same track and
takes the wing off. He still tries to drive 110 mph, but only goes 100
mph, where the top non-wing guys goes 95 mph.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani:moon:

[motorhead748]

Originally Posted by Larryoracing Hey Al, I'm goin' to have a little fun with your post. Someone of intelligence will "chime" in and give you the information you need. One thing I think is a big advantage to non-wing racer who buys parts off a WoO Wing racer is the motor. 1) So if you want to have a good advantage over your local non-wing driver, buy a World Class, Kick AZZ 410 motor from a top WoO team Wing Racer and stick that motor in your frame of choice and you will have a competitive advantage over your non-wing competitors. 2) There are lot of WoO drivers that drive into Big, Non-wing USAC/or whatever races and kick everybody tail with thier wing frames. So it's not really the frame, but the top notch equipment, tons of racing experience...ie.. 100 WoO races per year and knowing how to set up the chassis for any track and any racing condition. 3) About the only thing I heard at our local race track with a Non-wing Maxim was the frame was 2" shorter than a standard wing frame, I think the non- wing frame was wider than a wing frame and possible the engine was set back a little bit more compared to a Wing Maxim Frame. 4) There are a lot of guys that take a wing car, take the wing off, set it up and are very competitive with any Non-Wing Frame/non-wing driver. a) Personally I think the Wing drivers have better, lighter equipment and are use to driving faster than a non-wing drivers. So the Wing driver is use to driving 110 mph and comes to the same track and takes the wing off. He still tries to drive 110 mph, but only goes 100 mph, where the top non-wing guys goes 95 mph. Sincerely, Larry Otani:moon:

everything he said +1. Either go volounteer on a decent car for a year or go buy the best car you can afford no matter what it is. By the time you figure out what you want you will have torn up/ worn out your first car and can then make a decent desision and go buy what you want.

[Al Soran]

Larry, thanks for your input, and I think you are right about better equipment, experience, etc.

Motorhead, I'm not planning on running a non-wing sprint car anytime soon. I'm too old and broke. I was just curious about the construction of them. I have seen frames with different configurations around the roll cage area (specifically the support bar on what I would call the "B" post) and wondered if anybody knew why. I assume maybe it has to do with chassis flex, but I don't know. Good advice though to anyone thinking about getting in, to spend some time with a team for a year or so first.

[Larryoracing]

Dear Al,

I enjoyed your post and I was trying to think of what support bar to the "B"
pillar you were talking about. I spend a lot of time just looking at frames trying
to get into the mind of the chassis builders. Trying to figure out what the chassis
builder is trying to do/accomplish. What is this guy trying to engineer into the chassis? I haven't had much luck...lol! But I keep looking. It's like doing a math
problem in Jr High School...if you think about the problem long enough the answer
will come to you miraculously.....lol! It's not luck at all, it's just a matter of how long you are willing to search for the answer. If you put in the time the answer will come, guaranteed. If you are willling to wait long enough all your dreams will come
true. So it all comes down to what my boss told me many years ago.

"Larry...Health is the most important thing a man can have" "Take care of yourself 'and when the time comes you will be able to accomplish/do what you
want in life'".

Back to the point. Looking at the Maxim Chassis dwgs on their web page,
I figure on a Wing car they lay the "B" pillars back so that the "Wing" hangs
further back on the chassis to give the car more rear down force.

If you look at thier schematics/dwgs on their web page their are a lot of
support bars to the front of the chassis. They want to make sure all the loads
transferred from the front of the car are transmitted to the back of the car.

2) The key is they don't want the car too stiff, so in the center of their cars
most of the diagonal and longitudinal tubes are missing. There are just the two
down tubes transmitting all the twisting forces generated from the front of the car to the rear.

3) If you look at a "Spike" midget chassis the "B" pillars are really layed back.
The "B" pillars are really high/tall in the chassis to promote side forces to the
the outside RR tire, during cornering. And the car is narrow to promote
maximum side forces during roll through the corners....ie... torque is
equal to "Force" X "lever arm". Get the "B" pillars high and get the car
narrow to transmitt maxim side forces through the corners. Kind of like a
bigger lever arm to move a heavy rock or object. The car is high and and
the distance is long from the side of the chassis to the RR tire (Narrow
Chassis) to promotote maximum downforce to the RR of the car,
during cornering. And the "B" pillars are layed back to give more Rear Wt
distribution. It's a complete system and has been engineered that way
From John Godfrey's (?) many years of laying in bed at nights dreaming
this stuff up...lol! Wonder what John is dreaming up next. He's not dead
yet...lol, if you know what I mean?????


Anyhow those are my ideas and I'm sticking to it...lol! That is what bench
racing is all about and best of "Health" to you.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani:applaud:

[dant]

Originally Posted by Al Soran And....if you were going to run just one 1/4 mile pretty flat and typically slick dirt track, what would be your chassis of choice, and why (four-bar, five-bar, coil front, coil with anti sway bar, etc)?

I'm not smart,but I'd have to ask more?rules allow cockpit adj. -shocks /weight jacks...does the track blue groove..If no to both and your not extremely wealthy..a 4 bar would work fine...coil front work well because of great [and expensive]spring and shock packages..if your track doesn't allow cockpit adj....get a 4 bar,39 " motor plate to rear axel center,slant tube from front tube[by radiator]to motor plate verticle[flexi flyer]. If possible adj. mounts for ladder,shorter ladder car.Under the described conditions ,an 850hp+ motor would be useless/hard to drive...your goal is max traction,near zero wheel spin and developing an extremely smooth driving style........but change the paramiters and I'd give a totally different answer

[9racing]

Originally Posted by dant I'm not smart,but I'd have to ask more?rules allow cockpit adj. -shocks /weight jacks...does the track blue groove..If no to both and your not extremely wealthy..a 4 bar would work fine...coil front work well because of great [and expensive]spring and shock packages..if your track doesn't allow cockpit adj....get a 4 bar,39 " motor plate to rear axel center,slant tube from front tube[by radiator]to motor plate verticle[flexi flyer]. If possible adj. mounts for ladder,shorter ladder car.Under the described conditions ,an 850hp+ motor would be useless/hard to drive...your goal is max traction,near zero wheel spin and developing an extremely smooth driving style........but change the paramiters and I'd give a totally different answer

Amen, hit it totally.. Its not that woo has so much better equip.. Its what Usac allows, Versus what Woo allows... Like last year for instance, i think Woo did away with the cockpit adjustable shocks? Or maybe it was just the "double" adjustable shocks.. where usac hasnt allowed double adjustable shocks.. Money issues i believe.. And like Dant said, your not gonna put 850 hp to the track on a "normal" 1/4 mile dirt track for the whole night.. And Larry O had it right i think with the Woo drivers used to driving way faster and easier for them to "tone" it down.. rather than a Non wing guy trying to put it out on the ragged edge.. I personally like the Twister style car, like the Hoffmans run.. But the 5 bar car has really kinda taken over as of the last year and half 2 years?.. A real good person to talk to would be Brady short, i know they used to keep a "twister" and a 5 bar car in the trailer together.. My .02

Nick

[6565]

Yes, the outlaw banned everything cockpit adjustable, with the exception of the front to back (only) wing slider.

I just watched Jesse Hockett run the piss out of the "USAC" boys,mind you a non-wing car won, BUT Hockett and the winner were in a class of their own at the finnish. Hockett was running a wing chassis..period, just a four bar car!
SO in my opinion the only thing that matters is experience and skill.