[jjones752]

Excellent post Brad, especially the concern over added weight; for the sake of flogging my own dead horse, allow me to throw a couple of real-world scenarios out there, the two I know the most about (with a couple of ideas on what to call us). I am only skimming the high points of the rules:
Scenario 1: Montpelier.
Open Midgets (I kinda like that vs. "National"): 1,050 lbs., 12" tire max on 10" rim max. (all cars, open tire, limit one RR per night)
Spec/Stock Midgets (better than D-II/Sportsman? Maybe...): No minimum weight, 12" tire, 10" rim.
Moto-Midgets (Still needs work): No minimum weight, 12" tire but a 12" rim. Chain & Shaft allowed.
This formula may not be ideal (what is?) but so far all of the competitors seem to be all right with it; the Open Motors usually dominate but you see Focus/Ecotec and the occasional M/C powerplants up in the mix (not me, yet, but maybe this year...).
Scenario 2. IMRA:
Open Midgets: Disallowed
Stock/Spec: 1100lbs, Semi-spec tire, 10" rim
Motorcyle Power: 925lbs. same tire rule, 12" rim. Chain only.
As much as I love Montpelier's minimalistic, y'all come approach, this may be, in my opinion, the best of all worlds. the reason I say this is judging by the one time I've raced with IMRA and the videos/race reports I've read, the competition is close, fierce and exciting between the two seemingly disparate groups with both configurations winning their fair share, and without the need for artificial inhibitors like intake restrictions or bolt-on weight.
People like to talk about what a "traditional" midget is, but if you go all the way back to the origins of the sport fields were full of all kinds of setups; V8-60's, Offies, Elto outboards, J.A.P. v-twins (chain-driven), Harley-based Drakes, tractor engines and they were all midgets. Maybe it's OK to be just a little bit different, and still be the same...

[ThrowbackRacingTeam]

Too bad this didn't happen about 8 years ago when it should have been done. It may be too late now but hopefully it works. Let's get real about car counts, though. IMRA doesn't get 40-50 cars. They, and IRS average 13-19 most of the time. IMRA had a high count somewhere in the low 20's and low of 7 last year. That being said, if some form of this engine package became the "National" rules, those numbers would likely go up. I think they should keep it as stock as possible or they will end up costing too much again. If there is a larger size such as 3.0-3.5 that would be faster and could still be stock. They need to do away with a lot of chassis stuff too that midgets don't need. Titanium, carbon fiber and fancy shocks should all be banned. We ran a $55 steel shock on our car and it worked great!

[Roy Bleckert]

Originally Posted by Kuhn74 Still a good read here fellas. Just my opinion, but I think USAC may be leaning towards the 2.4L production based engines in the future. At some point, in order to bring dollars back into the sport, corporate partners have to come back. Kevin Miller has been on a mission since his early days at USAC to get the 2.4L platform going. With that, many different manufacturers would be able to be apart of the game. With that, the announcer at the racetrack would be able to say Ford, Chevy, Honda, Mopar, etc, etc. With that, he could pursue those companies for sponsorship. These folks aren't going to spend money if they don't think they can get something back via ROI. MOPAR didn't sponsor the series because they loved midget racing. Neither did Toyota. Honda isn't doing it now just because midget racing is so great that they want to be a part of it. At some point, the current style platform will not exist as the main platform. USAC has a dwindling car count and owners quitting every year because of expenses. Sooner or later, they are just going to draw a line in the sand and make a major change. They have done it before as an organization with other things. Kevin Miller certainly isn't above alienating his last 4-5 car owners to make a change like this. I don't see how it could hurt them as an organization in the long run. It will piss some people off and sting for a little while, but time heals all wounds. The silver crown division even seems to be rebuilding after the death penalty of the speedway cars. The purses will be more in line with the cost of the car at that point as well. I don't know what these 2.4L engine platforms would cost, but if we just assumed they were $10-15K, a guy could build a nice race ready car for $25-30 brand new. Races pay $3k to win currently, that is 10% of the value of the car. That makes more sense to me. In the end, midget racing has to find a way to bring people back => Kids specifically. Kids think drifting is cool these days...........I have watched a few of them on TV (for a few seconds) and I don't get it at all. Slide jobs in a midget are way more exciting. BUT, kids see it and love it. They can go buy it for a reasonable price. Work on it themselves with their buddies, Dad or Grandpa in their own garage. Upgrades are available for a reasonable price. Every car out there has corporate sponsorship on it. WHY? Is it because the race on Sunday, sell on Monday mentality still exists? If a midget had a 2.4L production based engine in it, would the local car dealerships get back into racing? Would it be more affordable to find a engine sponsor? Junkyard Jim's sponsoring people all around. Think about the car owners of the past. Cars had names and they usually came from the owners place of business. SELMA Shell sprint car, Ralph's Muffler Shop race team, etc. PLEASE DO NOT GO OFF ON A TIRE CONVERSATION ABOUT MY NEXT COMMENT................Everyone wants the tire rules opened back up and USAC/POWRi to cut ties with Hoosier. The belief is that the price of tires will come down because of the competition. For conversation sake, lets just say that is 100% correct.............Wouldn't this 2.4L production based engine create the same thing? In theory? Suddenly every tuner shop in the country is a midget engine builder. Every junk yard and car dealership is a engine supplier. When you are out in the middle of Kansas in the middle of July, you can actually go and get a crank sensor at O'Reilly's instead of having to carry your own assortment of spare parts everywhere. I think BMARA is going in the right direction here, it may not be noticed this year, but it will get better for them. For the record (not bashing anyone), I don't like the idea of bolting 50-100 of lead on a 900lb car. Or any race car really. We have seen, and I have personally been a part of some wicked midget crashes. If that lead weight were ever to come off there and get into the stands..............what a nightmare that would be. I know there is a risk with crashing and any parts getting into the stands, but when you have something like lead that isn't necessary for competition get loose and get into the stands..........I think the lawyers would be lined up at the pit gate (they wouldn't come in because they don't want to sign the waiver).

Brad-I think we have a lot of common ground also , I hope you are right USAC is working towards letting 2.5 liter stock block eng in , My sense is the EFI is a sticking point & that is what a stock block needs IMO in order to make it a viable eng . your # on the cost of stock blocks are about right , maybe a little high but close enough for talking points

I like your direction on the tire deal open it up , I would put a cap on the cost say $ 125 per tire as long as it is available to all & you start the main on the tire you qualify on , this was done for a year or two in CRA back in the 80's IIRC

[LEADERS EDGE]

I always have the nagging question of if it's the way to go then why haven't they been successful in terms of large car counts for the efforts that have been or are currently in place? Will the higher purses be the tipping point or will the competition raise the costs of these motors to the 15 to 20 grand range and make the people mad again? What concerns me too is as big as this thread is or the debate itself is.....I see very few people who are actually involved in the sport or are planning on being a part of it commenting. To me....if we are not using a purpose built engine then why not just make them like Kenyon cars and use a cheaper motor yet with a clutch and starter? I'm afraid people are thinking that will get a 200 motor put 2000 grand in it and your going to have something as reliable and produce as much performance as the current motors and that just isn't going to happen

[goforit14]

First let me say I'm all for the BMARA motor direction. Speaking as one who raced at Angell Park back in the day (long time ago) with a VW we were seriously out powered. Who ever would said horsepower doen't matter never been in the under horsepowered car. I just wish this would have happened much sooner.. I have a 1000cc chain drive car and believe I could compete with this rule if the would allow it..

[LEADERS EDGE]

Ok....why don't you sell your current car and get the new package? What price would get you into it?

[DAD]

Originally Posted by goforit14 First let me say I'm all for the BMARA motor direction. Speaking as one who raced at Angell Park back in the day (long time ago) with a VW we were seriously out powered. Who ever would said horsepower doen't matter never been in the under horsepowered car. I just wish this would have happened much sooner.. I have a 1000cc chain drive car and believe I could compete with this rule if the would allow it..

Go

Angle Park is not your typical small size Bull Ring!!! HP rules.

A 1000cc midget is more than competitive with an Echo-tec. To convert your car to echo tec if your old motor lays down would require the motor plate motor and drive line. They share the same chassis even your bird cages will work with a quick change. Considering the cost of late model bike engines it might not be too big of a jump for you. An interesting note, the radiator on most 1000cc cars must be larger than what a midget would run with. Those extra BTU's says something about performance.

Honest Dad himself

[xoxide]

Originally Posted by Kuhn74 In the end, midget racing has to find a way to bring people back => Kids specifically. Kids think drifting is cool these days...........I have watched a few of them on TV (for a few seconds) and I don't get it at all. Slide jobs in a midget are way more exciting. BUT, kids see it and love it. They can go buy it for a reasonable price. Work on it themselves with their buddies, Dad or Grandpa in their own garage. Upgrades are available for a reasonable price. Every car out there has corporate sponsorship on it. WHY? Is it because the race on Sunday, sell on Monday mentality still exists?

You really hit the nail on the head with this bit of information.... Speaking from experience actually....

I come from winged sprint cars, my dad ran them, I went to every race, dreamed of racing them one day etc. Come my teenage years, dad didn't want me in a sprint car, he wanted me to stay away from racing and go to college/graduate college.....

In comes drifting- closest thing I could get to sliding around a dirt oval, so I spend every dime I had on a 95 240sx and drifted it at track events and built it into a REALLY nice car over the course of two years. Come last year, I was financially stable enough to look back into dirt racing (also my friend got a midget to run with Waynes series), so I went and listed all of my drifting stuff for sale and am just finishing up building my midget (new triple X with a 2.4 ecotec.... Whole car with NICE components (brand new frame, DMI driveline, Reddevil brakes, etc etc) with the MWR Ecotec cost me right about $19,000..... That's cheap ENOUGH for a college student such as myself to be able to afford as far as up front entry costs go, and they are cheap enough to race every other weekend on a college budget.

Case in point- yes, drifting was cheap enough that most kids (16-25) can afford to go and build a car and track it on the weekends.... If midgets such as the "D2" (2.4l) cars become popular across the nation I really think car counts would increase substantially....

Its worth noting, "kids" talk..... My friend got a "D2" midget, I saw the costs involved and immediately sold my drifting stuff to do it, and then his stepbrother ended up getting a car as well..... 3 new cars within a year from one "group" isn't bad.....

[LEADERS EDGE]

Were the drift events for paying fans? I only ask because the ones I have seen on TV were corporate sponsored events that were free to attend. Will fans come to see these cars is a huge question that will have to be answered quickly as well because there aren't any corporate sponsors at the moment to carry that load. Tracks have to have fans. Not saying they won't....but 35 to 40 cars in front of empty grandstands won't work for the tracks.

[xoxide]

We (drivers) paid $50 to drift all day or entry for the competition day and spectators paid $10 to get in and watch.

I can promise you the ones you watch on tv (most likely formula drift) that was corporate sponsored was still not free. I've been to those events going on 5 years now and they are typically about $35-40 entry fee AND a $10 parking pass... And their crows are ALWAYS huge.