Aluminum v6 midget

MRAY3 · 4/1/18, 3:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copper14

I thought d2 was to be a junk yard motor.i think sun prairie ruined the junk yard motor concept.

Badger runs at Sun Prairie. Badger is not D-2, and never has intended to be D-2.

How would you go about enforcing a rule mandating "junkyard motors?" Should the owner be allowed to rebuild his "junkyard motor" if he used all stock O.E.M. parts? What if he rebuilds it and rubs grease and dirt all over it afterwards?

How would any of these problems go away by switching to "stock V-6 engines?"

Wayne Davis · 4/1/18, 3:39 PM

[quote=MRAY3;491590]

Quote:

The $15,000 dollar engine is dry sumped...Dry sump is not allow in our series...of course you knew that but wanted to start crap anyway

Quote:

Wayne, I have been asked by several people if I would build them a D-2 engine. I have turned them all down, partly because nobody seems to know what the rules are day by day. Now you claim dry sump engines are not legal with your D-2 series, but your own Gater Dirt Nationals flyer for 2018 says wet or dry sump is ok. Which is it? Do you tech cams? If so, what method and or tools do you use? What are the legal cam specs for each engine (including the motorcycle engines?) Do you consider any manufacturing and/or measuring tolerances when determining the legality of the cams? What is the maximum compression ratio for each engine (including motorcycle engines?)

Hey Mr. Ray....I say mister out of respect cause I think you are my elder not out of being suficious...(misspelled)...The GDN has always had a few different rules allowing the things that all do and dry sump is one. Up until this year we allowed in-cockpit adjustments but they have never been allowed in the series...as far as the regular season, it has always been my belief there is no room in the series SSMS to spend that kind of $$$ $15,000 to race competitively and you do not have to have a dry sump to do it.

Tech, we use several tools like bore and scope to check pistons/bore and stroke. We pull headers back to look for porting...we have the air cleaner removed for intake port inspection...we have a spark plug removed for piston inspection for flat top only pistons and valve and compression chamber inspection. We check charging systems along with clutch and all gears in MC engines. We check for rotating Ti including drive shaft. This is done before each race...After we have pulled cam covers to look at cams...must be oem and have oem markings there is not a lift or duration spec so I do not tech that...we check tires ..even have sent samples to lab..
If I suspect I will pull an engine completely down to check stock equivalent pistons...if the piston protrudes outside the block and crankshaft lightning ... I do not think anyone else techs as much as we do but I am a believer of it...If you do not tech then why have rules? I do not mind DQ'ing racers that break the rules hence the winner at Fri nights GDN got DQ'ed.

Thanks for the questions Mr. Ray and I hope I answered them for you and hope you enjoy Easter with your family

Wayne Davis · 4/1/18, 3:44 PM

This is our SSMS rules: http://www.ssmidgets.com/midget-rules.html

Addmement 1a. Piston must be 3 ring design.

Aftermarket cam gears, sprockets, timing chains, timing belts may be used. All other STOCK OEM cylinder head components must be used. Welding on the cylinder head will NOT be permitted. Porting of the cylinder head including intake matching is NOT ALLOWED,

see (*).
Machining, grinding, sanding, or etching of the intake and/or exhaust ports is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. No altering of the shape and/or size of the intake or exhaust ports from OEM specs is allowed.

Fuel Injection: Constant Flow Mechanical or EFI with plenum or individual runner intake. Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed, but must be readily available and have supported software. No carburetors.

(*)Notes: We are aware that there are many “built up” 2.0 Ford Focus engines out there. While we do not expect Focus engine owners to “fix/replace” any possible changes that have been done to the engine, we do remind that the Focus/SCREAM engine can not utilize any other head except the 2000-2004 Focus factory head. No aftermarket heads of any kind. Porting and polishing of Ztec head is ok.

Focus Engines: Aftermarket pistons (JE), rods, cams, cam gears, springs, valves, retainers, keepers. Adding, removing, lightening, chamfering or “knife edging” crankshaft counterweights is strictly prohibited. Must remain stock stroke...2 mil over bore ok, JE piston # 298717 or 298718

Oil System: Wet Sump

Engine Management Systems may use the following sensors: MAP (manifold absolute pressure), TPS (throttle position sensor), Crank, Cam, Water temp., Oil temp., Oil Pressure, Oxygen sensor, Fuel Pressure, IAC (idle air control, MAT (manifold air temp.), and EGT.
The use of Wheel Speed Sensors with management systems is prohibited.

Traction Control is illegal.

MRAY3 · 4/1/18, 4:45 PM

Wayne,
You answered some of my questions, but I find it interesting that your rules are different for your regular series and your biggest race, but since it's your series, that's totally up to you. And I completely agree with the statement, "If you do not tech then why have rules?" Your rules call for stock O.E.M. cams, but your only method of enforcing that rule is a visual inspection? No measurement at all? What about the compression ratio limits? What is the maximum compression ratio allowed (motorcycle engines and car engines?) And for the record, I can't get any D-2 series to answer either of these questions. I believe the competitors deserve to know whether or not they are racing against all legal race cars. If the actual requirement for cams is "they must look stock" all the racers in the series should know that. In order to prevent major conflicts in tech, that is how the rule should read.

Wayne Davis · 4/1/18, 6:03 PM

The reason I do that is because it is for all series and there are a few that differ from one to another like the flat top piston rule....Some racers from down here can not go race with the IMRA or the MTM because they are “STOCK” only pistons which would be ok if all stock engines had the same 11:1 piston in it as the LE5ecotec does..... I have considered a compression test and am going to be gathering data (checking different cars) this season to implement it for 2019. My guess would be somewhere between 8-15%. And at the same time we will be testing a spec shock package for next year....and 1 way I will implement this is that we the series will have a couple of brand new shocks and at any given time the tech director can bring you a brand new shock and swap it out with your shock.... No it will not be as costly as most think because most everyone has their shocks rebuilt over the off season so instead of rebuild you buy new ones... Thank you for being some substance to this post....this is what it is supposed to be instead of the other BS.... Thank you

Backitin · 4/2/18, 8:11 AM

Racing today is stupid and getting dumber every day. Rules end up helping the best cheaters, the ones with the deepest pockets. Ends up costing more to build a cheat engine then just build a competitive engine in the first place.

It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can spend a billion dollars on a car but it wont be any faster then a elcheapo on harder skinnier tires. The best racing by far I ever saw was on skinnier, harder tires. Your trying to tell me nobody has it in them to run a harder tire fast or even try ? It all comes down to this age were in, always has to be faster even if the end product suffers for it. You can race whatever division you want in a car, I promise you there will be high dollar cheaters on the track with you.
Run what you brung and hope for someone with brains to figure out a tire solution or at least a step in the right direction.

MRAY3 · 4/2/18, 9:33 AM

Midgets of the 50's, 60's, and 70's all had narrower tires, smaller circumference tires, and harder tires. They did not have specialized high-dollar shocks either. The engines produced over 100 less horsepower than today's Midgets have. A good car, a good engine, a good mechanic, and a good driver still came out on top. Reducing the cost of racing will make it possible for more people to race, but the people who know how to win, will continue to win. No rule will ever change that.

USSA · 4/2/18, 3:21 PM

You all are aware that Ford Racing had 2.0 Zetec head listed in their parts catalogue that was CNC Ported and Polished and a very good piece. They were also identical to the stock head externally. They are out there, no longer available from Ford Racing and very rare these days. My point is they were a factory head.

Wayne Davis · 4/2/18, 4:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRAY3

Reducing the cost of racing will make it possible for more people to race, but the people who know how to win, will continue to win.

EXACTLY
Mr.Ray

D-2 was designed to get people back into midget racing without having to get a 2nd mortgage on your home. It is suppose to be a working mans class not a who can outspend class

You don't need carbon/titanium/$15,000 dollar engines or $3,000 dollar shocks to go race and enjoy yourself....I'm all for anyone that will spend that kind of $$$...just do it with Badger/USAC/PowrI/ARDC not D-2....

Maybe 3 free pit passes and 5 gal of fuel with NO PAYOUT is the answer like the DMA does

Cobra 14 · 4/4/18, 7:50 PM

I just can't see the point in limiting engines to 2.4l (200hp stock) and then spending $ to try to get more HP when a v6 already has more HP (stock) for less than $2k. Ideally I think we need to narrow up the rear tires, but to save people buying wheels and new tires the idea of minimum tire pressures to harden the side walls and try to "crown" the tire a little too lessen grip could be the easiest cheapest way to get the same result (less tire traction) the cheapest horsepower is cubic inches and if you suddenly have more torque than you can hook up, the incentive to spend $ to get more is eliminated. The blue collar worker needs to see this division as affordable and within their grasp. Eliminating engine tech also eliminates all the associated ******** that goes with it. The aluminum v6 engines with forged components might have once been cost prohibitive, but these are now found in stock engines from various manufacturers everywhere. Bottom line.. If you can cost effectively get more HP/torque than you can hook up.. Then yes.. The engines will even last longer and the best setup and driver will see again rise to the top and cubic dollars will not solely determine the outcome. At no time would I suggest creating another class but rather including any engine under 3.8l. (including cycle engines) and let the teams choose their poison

4/1/18, 3:44 PM	#53 Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Wayne Davis Senior Member Race Count This Year: 38 Race Count Last Year: 68 Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 2,047	This is our SSMS rules: http://www.ssmidgets.com/midget-rules.html Addmement 1a. Piston must be 3 ring design. Aftermarket cam gears, sprockets, timing chains, timing belts may be used. All other STOCK OEM cylinder head components must be used. Welding on the cylinder head will NOT be permitted. Porting of the cylinder head including intake matching is NOT ALLOWED, see (). Machining, grinding, sanding, or etching of the intake and/or exhaust ports is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. No altering of the shape and/or size of the intake or exhaust ports from OEM specs is allowed. Fuel Injection: Constant Flow Mechanical or EFI with plenum or individual runner intake. Any programmable ignition/fuel injection systems are allowed, but must be readily available and have supported software. No carburetors. ()Notes: We are aware that there are many “built up” 2.0 Ford Focus engines out there. While we do not expect Focus engine owners to “fix/replace” any possible changes that have been done to the engine, we do remind that the Focus/SCREAM engine can not utilize any other head except the 2000-2004 Focus factory head. No aftermarket heads of any kind. Porting and polishing of Ztec head is ok. Focus Engines: Aftermarket pistons (JE), rods, cams, cam gears, springs, valves, retainers, keepers. Adding, removing, lightening, chamfering or “knife edging” crankshaft counterweights is strictly prohibited. Must remain stock stroke...2 mil over bore ok, JE piston # 298717 or 298718 *Oil System: Wet Sump* Engine Management Systems may use the following sensors: MAP (manifold absolute pressure), TPS (throttle position sensor), Crank, Cam, Water temp., Oil temp., Oil Pressure, Oxygen sensor, Fuel Pressure, IAC (idle air control, MAT (manifold air temp.), and EGT. The use of Wheel Speed Sensors with management systems is prohibited. Traction Control is illegal. __________________ Southern Outlaw Motorsports Jacksonville, Florida The Original Southern Outlaw www.SouthernOutlawPromotions.com

4/1/18, 6:03 PM	#55
Wayne Davis Senior Member Race Count This Year: 38 Race Count Last Year: 68 Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 2,047	The reason I do that is because it is for all series and there are a few that differ from one to another like the flat top piston rule....Some racers from down here can not go race with the IMRA or the MTM because they are “STOCK” only pistons which would be ok if all stock engines had the same 11:1 piston in it as the LE5ecotec does..... I have considered a compression test and am going to be gathering data (checking different cars) this season to implement it for 2019. My guess would be somewhere between 8-15%. And at the same time we will be testing a spec shock package for next year....and 1 way I will implement this is that we the series will have a couple of brand new shocks and at any given time the tech director can bring you a brand new shock and swap it out with your shock.... No it will not be as costly as most think because most everyone has their shocks rebuilt over the off season so instead of rebuild you buy new ones... Thank you for being some substance to this post....this is what it is supposed to be instead of the other BS.... Thank you __________________ Southern Outlaw Motorsports Jacksonville, Florida The Original Southern Outlaw www.SouthernOutlawPromotions.com

4/1/18, 4:45 PM	#54 Re: Aluminum v6 midget
MRAY3 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 52	Wayne, You answered some of my questions, but I find it interesting that your rules are different for your regular series and your biggest race, but since it's your series, that's totally up to you. And I completely agree with the statement, "If you do not tech then why have rules?" Your rules call for stock O.E.M. cams, but your only method of enforcing that rule is a visual inspection? No measurement at all? What about the compression ratio limits? What is the maximum compression ratio allowed (motorcycle engines and car engines?) And for the record, I can't get any D-2 series to answer either of these questions. I believe the competitors deserve to know whether or not they are racing against all legal race cars. If the actual requirement for cams is "they must look stock" all the racers in the series should know that. In order to prevent major conflicts in tech, that is how the rule should read.

4/2/18, 8:11 AM	#56 Re: Aluminum v6 midget
Backitin Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2016 Posts: 606	Racing today is stupid and getting dumber every day. Rules end up helping the best cheaters, the ones with the deepest pockets. Ends up costing more to build a cheat engine then just build a competitive engine in the first place. It shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you can spend a billion dollars on a car but it wont be any faster then a elcheapo on harder skinnier tires. The best racing by far I ever saw was on skinnier, harder tires. Your trying to tell me nobody has it in them to run a harder tire fast or even try ? It all comes down to this age were in, always has to be faster even if the end product suffers for it. You can race whatever division you want in a car, I promise you there will be high dollar cheaters on the track with you. Run what you brung and hope for someone with brains to figure out a tire solution or at least a step in the right direction.

4/2/18, 3:21 PM	#58 Re: Aluminum v6 midget
USSA Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 115	You all are aware that Ford Racing had 2.0 Zetec head listed in their parts catalogue that was CNC Ported and Polished and a very good piece. They were also identical to the stock head externally. They are out there, no longer available from Ford Racing and very rare these days. My point is they were a factory head.

4/4/18, 7:50 PM	#60
Cobra 14 Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 145	I just can't see the point in limiting engines to 2.4l (200hp stock) and then spending $ to try to get more HP when a v6 already has more HP (stock) for less than $2k. Ideally I think we need to narrow up the rear tires, but to save people buying wheels and new tires the idea of minimum tire pressures to harden the side walls and try to "crown" the tire a little too lessen grip could be the easiest cheapest way to get the same result (less tire traction) the cheapest horsepower is cubic inches and if you suddenly have more torque than you can hook up, the incentive to spend $ to get more is eliminated. The blue collar worker needs to see this division as affordable and within their grasp. Eliminating engine tech also eliminates all the associated ******** that goes with it. The aluminum v6 engines with forged components might have once been cost prohibitive, but these are now found in stock engines from various manufacturers everywhere. Bottom line.. If you can cost effectively get more HP/torque than you can hook up.. Then yes.. The engines will even last longer and the best setup and driver will see again rise to the top and cubic dollars will not solely determine the outcome. At no time would I suggest creating another class but rather including any engine under 3.8l. (including cycle engines) and let the teams choose their poison