[Pitdad]

So if we're going to take this topic completely off the rails, I think I still have some old Marsh recapped Goodyears in the shed that came with my '86 Nance buyout. They were too hard and heavy to run in '88, but if someone really needs them now, I could be persuaded to part with them.

We could also check Towel City. I think they still recap racing tires. Sounds like we've got plenty of casings available...

[TQ29m]

Originally Posted by Pitdad So if we're going to take this topic completely off the rails, I think I still have some old Marsh recapped Goodyears in the shed that came with my '86 Nance buyout. They were too hard and heavy to run in '88, but if someone really needs them now, I could be persuaded to part with them. We could also check Towel City. I think they still recap racing tires. Sounds like we've got plenty of casings available...

It appears a standoff is in play, but it doesn't appear good for the majority, and terrible for the bleacher people, no give on the tire end, wonder what Hoosier will do now, and the promoters, just roll over, and schedule tin tops and Hornets! Looks like anyone that has a Hoosier rule, might be doing without Midgets, TQ's, and Sprints, either W,, or NW, and with the weather what it is, getting an early start has provided nothing but bills to pay for tracks and those who promote them, Looks like Paragon might still have a program that will attract fans and Sprints, and TwinCity if they choose! Just Sayin!

[Charles Nungester]

I said from the begining of the post that some may seem the topic silly.

But say you have two or three companies allowed. All three make a *Medium* Or 10-20-30 hardness Doesn't it make it more likely that more effort would be made into building a better tire? I mean brand H last one night. When the rule was made some ten years ago It was listed to last three or more nights and I know a team owner who said it did *THEN* So brands AR and GY make a medium that last five nights?

If it's competitive. Which is better for the teams? $750 a night or $750 for four or five nights?

[DaleDuBois]

Hoosier Tire pays big money to USAC for allowing only Hoosier tires the only tires allowed and you the racer are paying this every time you buy a Hoosier tire. So Hoosier makes tires that don't last so the racer has to buy more. I remember back in the day when I ran American Racer tires, these tires were better bald than Hoosier tire were when new. Some say Hoosier tires are not rubber but a plastic compound, this I don't know but there are better tires than Hoosier.

[kdobson]

I hate the implication that the tracks or series somehow are getting fat off of having a Hoosier 'kickback'. Yes, we all know that series that elect to enter a contract with Hoosier are going to get paid for mandating a tire. But over the years I've been a part of those agreements, I haven't bought as much as a loaf of bread or gallon of milk with Hoosier's money as a track/series.

In our circumstance here's where it goes. For the MOWA series, 100% of the money we receive from Hoosier Tire goes directly into the $100 tow money each of our top 10 teams get each night. It's not quite enough to fund it all but it's close enough. It all ends up in the racer's pocket. In our case the tracks don't pay that tow money. Memberships don't pay that tow money. Our series sponsor money is 100% allocated to our points fund. Personally, I don't care if we have a Hoosier contract/rule at all. But at the end of the day it's going to cost 10 racers $100 per night if we don't. And until/unless I know of a viable alternative that is better, cheaper and in abundant supply for years to come - I'm not dying to kill it.

For the past 10 years that Hoosier has been funding those 10 spots every night the racers haven't seemed to complain. In the short lifespan of our series, Hoosier has put well over 100k into the pockets of our teams - when there really wasn't any other viable tire option out there without having guys own a bunch of tires they can't race anywhere else. I know and realize that it's built into the price of the tire. Yes, I suppose it would be better if they reduced the cost of the tire by the proportional amount that they pay series and tracks and just save the racer money at retail and eliminate us passing it out as points/tow money. But it's all the same money. You pay it when you buy your tires and you get it back (whatever that extra built in cost is) when you get paid by your track or series. But at least you theoretically get it back, unlike the marketing fee built into a pair of Nike's that ends up in Jordan and Tiger's pockets.

Same goes for local tracks. I wanted to add midgets more regularly at Jacksonville but it was cost prohibitive with my sprint car purse already in place. Among the places I reached out to for a little extra each night was Hoosier Tire. Although not much at all, Hoosier was willing to support the midget program a little (obviously more races on midget tires = more tire sales) and so I figured that small amount into the midget purse which along with other support made me decide to go for it.

Now I have guys wanting an open midget tire rule. I fully understand that. But I'm not at the same time going to send Hoosier a bill for my midget payout along with a picture of a winner with an American Racer. The race wouldn't even happen without Hoosier's support. If we want to go that route - which is fine by me... seriously fine by me... I guess my solution will be to have two payout scales. One if you race a Hoosier - which they subsidize.... and another smaller payout if you race with another tire. Again, what I'm not going to do is take their money by agreeing to require their brand of tire - and then let people race whatever brand they want. So I suppose if that's what the racer wants to do the track series simply lets the racer decide... Here are your benefits if we require a Hoosier - and here's what money you lose if we don't. Right now I'm leaning toward an "Open Hoosier" rule for midgets which brings all the RD-12's you have laying around for Tulsa back into your trailer. Probably wouldn't work for a big series - but might work for our little gig.

Open tire rules are fine. There's just a financial consequence to that for the racer - because 9 times out of 10 or more that Hoosier 'kickback' is ending up in the racer's pocket anyway. I'm for sure not a fan of the price increases or the short supply we are expecting this year. But do you burn that bridge forever with a partner that has put 6 figures of money in your racers pockets over the past 10 years? And where does that leave us 3 years down the road if you burn it down? All questions I don't have an answer to - except to know that to make them you need to think of all possible outcomes over the long term without the influence of emotions of the moment.

[flagboy55]

Man I’ll tell you, it’s great when we
get Kenny to come on and give us some insight to a different perspective. I would love to have a couple beers with this guy to hear his views on any number of topics. I like to consider all information, and I haven’t stewed this one entirely, but I think about the MOWA scenario. So the top ten get tow money thanks to Hoosier. No one is going to see a ten a ten car show, or at least not me. Overall this is a very complex issue that won’t get solved anytime soon. My thoughts without a whole lot of time or math, is competition would probably improve things. A monopoly with pay to play deals is kinda like redistribution of wealth.

[DaleDuBois]

In all of my racing over the years I never received any tow money, but I raced mods. It could be that if I was still running when they waved the checkered flag, I usually had a good finish. If I crashed out or blew up, I never asked for tow money. I raced all over the mid-west and all across the USA all the way California and down to Florida, mostly with IMCA. In 1995 I won the Mod championship at Bloomington and never won a feature. So, I don't know about the tow money that the sprint car racers get. What I do know about sprint car racing is if you win some races, you must have a car owner with lots of money or a good sponsor. I do think if you race a sprint car and don't have the big dollars, maybe with Paragon's steel block rules this track would be the place to race at. Mostly because the big buck racers won't be there.

[JDavis#11]

Originally Posted by kdobson I hate the implication that the tracks or series somehow are getting fat off of having a Hoosier 'kickback'. Yes, we all know that series that elect to enter a contract with Hoosier are going to get paid for mandating a tire. But over the years I've been a part of those agreements, I haven't bought as much as a loaf of bread or gallon of milk with Hoosier's money as a track/series. In our circumstance here's where it goes. For the MOWA series, 100% of the money we receive from Hoosier Tire goes directly into the $100 tow money each of our top 10 teams get each night. It's not quite enough to fund it all but it's close enough. It all ends up in the racer's pocket. In our case the tracks don't pay that tow money. Memberships don't pay that tow money. Our series sponsor money is 100% allocated to our points fund. Personally, I don't care if we have a Hoosier contract/rule at all. But at the end of the day it's going to cost 10 racers $100 per night if we don't. And until/unless I know of a viable alternative that is better, cheaper and in abundant supply for years to come - I'm not dying to kill it. For the past 10 years that Hoosier has been funding those 10 spots every night the racers haven't seemed to complain. In the short lifespan of our series, Hoosier has put well over 100k into the pockets of our teams - when there really wasn't any other viable tire option out there without having guys own a bunch of tires they can't race anywhere else. I know and realize that it's built into the price of the tire. Yes, I suppose it would be better if they reduced the cost of the tire by the proportional amount that they pay series and tracks and just save the racer money at retail and eliminate us passing it out as points/tow money. But it's all the same money. You pay it when you buy your tires and you get it back (whatever that extra built in cost is) when you get paid by your track or series. But at least you theoretically get it back, unlike the marketing fee built into a pair of Nike's that ends up in Jordan and Tiger's pockets. Same goes for local tracks. I wanted to add midgets more regularly at Jacksonville but it was cost prohibitive with my sprint car purse already in place. Among the places I reached out to for a little extra each night was Hoosier Tire. Although not much at all, Hoosier was willing to support the midget program a little (obviously more races on midget tires = more tire sales) and so I figured that small amount into the midget purse which along with other support made me decide to go for it. Now I have guys wanting an open midget tire rule. I fully understand that. But I'm not at the same time going to send Hoosier a bill for my midget payout along with a picture of a winner with an American Racer. The race wouldn't even happen without Hoosier's support. If we want to go that route - which is fine by me... seriously fine by me... I guess my solution will be to have two payout scales. One if you race a Hoosier - which they subsidize.... and another smaller payout if you race with another tire. Again, what I'm not going to do is take their money by agreeing to require their brand of tire - and then let people race whatever brand they want. So I suppose if that's what the racer wants to do the track series simply lets the racer decide... Here are your benefits if we require a Hoosier - and here's what money you lose if we don't. Right now I'm leaning toward an "Open Hoosier" rule for midgets which brings all the RD-12's you have laying around for Tulsa back into your trailer. Probably wouldn't work for a big series - but might work for our little gig. Open tire rules are fine. There's just a financial consequence to that for the racer - because 9 times out of 10 or more that Hoosier 'kickback' is ending up in the racer's pocket anyway. I'm for sure not a fan of the price increases or the short supply we are expecting this year. But do you burn that bridge forever with a partner that has put 6 figures of money in your racers pockets over the past 10 years? And where does that leave us 3 years down the road if you burn it down? All questions I don't have an answer to - except to know that to make them you need to think of all possible outcomes over the long term without the influence of emotions of the moment.

I appreciate the view from another perspective. I have no idea how much a series or track gets to have an all Hoosier tire rule. I also have no idea how tracks or series ,other than yours, spend that money, (thank you for sharing) but I cannot imagine we the racers, would not be in a better situation on tires right now if we had some competition among manufactures. A monopoly only benefits the owner of the monopoly. Hoosier could still sponsor tracks or series without the mandate, as well as American Racer , Good Year or any other company that wants to get in the game. NOS doesn't mandate everyone drink their product at a USAC show. I am not against Hoosier, but I don't like the Hoosier only rule!

[Tim]

Originally Posted by sw1911 A little competition cures many ills.....

Folks,

A local racer here just received two American Racer MC2 right rears. Assuming what he told me is true, which I have no reason not to believe him, he paid $600 for the two, including $60 for shipping. If my second grade arithmetic is correct that equates to $540 for the pair, or $270 each.

Just FYI

Tim Simmons

[Charles Nungester]

I want to thank anyone who put serious input into this thread.

I still don't see the answer but poping two RR's in a feature and damaging a third to finish isn't feasible for anyone.