Stupid Cage design question

Aces&Eights · 1/31/17, 10:57 AM

Why are the cage on sprints typically higher in the back than the front? Even on the tall cage cars I've seen, they only seem to get higher in the rear? Why aren't their angle bars running from the rear supporting closer to the middle of the halo on the sides? The SpeedSTR's have this support structure, either side of the driver

, why not a sprint?

sjracer26 · 1/31/17, 11:18 AM

I am not totally sure on the reasons why the back is higher than the front beyond the obvious additional head clearance where the driver will be and where the A frame is supporting the structure.

As far as the additional support to the mid sections of the halo, I think there are a few concerns.
One would be stiffening. That bar would stiffen the chassis significantly and change the handling characteristics. I had a "shoulder" bar on the right side of my dirt midget once. It went from the tube near the steering rack straight back to the the rear down tube on the right side of the A frame. My brothers midget, same chassis, did not have this. With the same setups he would pick the left front up and drive hard off the right rear whereas I would just end up pulling a full on wheelie. I always assumed the cause was that bar stiffened the car and prevented flex.

The second concern maybe is having less access to get in as a safety member or out as a driver of the car after a wreck or in a fire. In the same breath the bar during an impact could bend/snap and collapse into the driver. However full containment seats are getting better and better so this may be less of a concern.

All of that said I am in favor of changing the designs of these cars to improve safety and would love to see a fully funded effort with proper engineering and testing. If anyone wants to work on it let me know, I'll happily spend time on it. My brother and I both are engineers and actually have worked on a few concepts in the past. My brothers senior design project was a redesigned midget chassis to improve safety in halo first crashes. The results were good, but the changes needed were drastic and would drastically change the appearance and handling of the cars.

Aces&Eights · 1/31/17, 1:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjracer26

I am not totally sure on the reasons why the back is higher than the front beyond the obvious additional head clearance where the driver will be and where the A frame is supporting the structure.

As far as the additional support to the mid sections of the halo, I think there are a few concerns.
One would be stiffening. That bar would stiffen the chassis significantly and change the handling characteristics. I had a "shoulder" bar on the right side of my dirt midget once. It went from the tube near the steering rack straight back to the the rear down tube on the right side of the A frame. My brothers midget, same chassis, did not have this. With the same setups he would pick the left front up and drive hard off the right rear whereas I would just end up pulling a full on wheelie. I always assumed the cause was that bar stiffened the car and prevented flex.

The second concern maybe is having less access to get in as a safety member or out as a driver of the car after a wreck or in a fire. In the same breath the bar during an impact could bend/snap and collapse into the driver. However full containment seats are getting better and better so this may be less of a concern.

All of that said I am in favor of changing the designs of these cars to improve safety and would love to see a fully funded effort with proper engineering and testing. If anyone wants to work on it let me know, I'll happily spend time on it. My brother and I both are engineers and actually have worked on a few concepts in the past. My brothers senior design project was a redesigned midget chassis to improve safety in halo first crashes. The results were good, but the changes needed were drastic and would drastically change the appearance and handling of the cars.

I was curious, I come from a DLM background and in recent years we've adopted a bar that starts at the back of driver door(think above left shoulder) and angles forward and up supporting the halo above the drivers head better.

sjracer26 · 1/31/17, 5:08 PM

I think with the late models, and any bigger car really, you have more room for proper structural supports like you mentioned without greatly altering the handling of the car. The midgets and sprints end up being limited in those types of improvement opportunities due to their inherited (outdated) design. I have been told the original roll cage on sprints/midgets/champs was actually for the fuel tank and not the driver, at the time drivers were cheap, but fabricating a new fuel tank was very expensive!

The unfortunate truth of this type of grass roots racing is that there is not enough exposure or big money involved to properly spark a safety boom. When BC died it was a major impact, but even still I am not optimistic that it was a big enough catalyst for proper change. BC got a big response in the news outlets, but how many other drivers died or saw serious injuries from similar accidents over the last few years in all divisions of dirt racing? In all, it is chalked up as an "acceptable risk" for this type of racing. I can understand that thought, but I also strongly believe that we can always improve and work to minimize that risk. But with major changes comes major cost and we are talking about grass roots here. Likely, there would not be a lot of support given for big changes that result in moth balling current designed cars.

I could go on and on with this subject, maybe one day I'll have some means to try and take a stab at doing something about it...

HH99 · 1/31/17, 10:03 PM

An additional reason is simply style. The early Edmunds midgets were dead flat front to rear. Howard Linne ragged Don Edmunds until he put some degree of forward rake in the top cage side hoops and it really did make the cars more stylish. Howards cars were wicked fast but he was equally concerned about what they looked like. It continues today.

the1jet17 · 2/2/17, 5:20 PM

All it takes is to be different and win. If you win, people will follow. Plain and simple. (I agree that we should look to make the roll cage safer.)

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1/31/17, 5:08 PM	#4 Re: Stupid Cage design question
sjracer26 Senior Member Race Count Last Year: 18 Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 525	I think with the late models, and any bigger car really, you have more room for proper structural supports like you mentioned without greatly altering the handling of the car. The midgets and sprints end up being limited in those types of improvement opportunities due to their inherited (outdated) design. I have been told the original roll cage on sprints/midgets/champs was actually for the fuel tank and not the driver, at the time drivers were cheap, but fabricating a new fuel tank was very expensive! The unfortunate truth of this type of grass roots racing is that there is not enough exposure or big money involved to properly spark a safety boom. When BC died it was a major impact, but even still I am not optimistic that it was a big enough catalyst for proper change. BC got a big response in the news outlets, but how many other drivers died or saw serious injuries from similar accidents over the last few years in all divisions of dirt racing? In all, it is chalked up as an "acceptable risk" for this type of racing. I can understand that thought, but I also strongly believe that we can always improve and work to minimize that risk. But with major changes comes major cost and we are talking about grass roots here. Likely, there would not be a lot of support given for big changes that result in moth balling current designed cars. I could go on and on with this subject, maybe one day I'll have some means to try and take a stab at doing something about it...

1/31/17, 10:03 PM	#5 Re: Stupid Cage design question
HH99 Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 35	An additional reason is simply style. The early Edmunds midgets were dead flat front to rear. Howard Linne ragged Don Edmunds until he put some degree of forward rake in the top cage side hoops and it really did make the cars more stylish. Howards cars were wicked fast but he was equally concerned about what they looked like. It continues today.