[Pitdad]

"Sounds like these folks might be listening to the fans AND the participants, someone might be listening, bring back some of the old days, when racing didn't break the bank, and the folks had fun, congratulations on your decision, and good luck to all!"

I didn't want to hijack the Paragon Speedway thread because it is a positive story about a local track, seemingly beating the odds, but with all this grumbling about tire costs and fuel costs and ********, I gotta ask someone to remind me, when was this magical time that racing didn't break the bank?

Granddad stopped racing in 1954, complaining that it cost too much to build a competitive Ford flathead...

Dad never got the car out for the 1980 season because he couldn't afford the wings and aluminum heads that were being allowed...

I barely got a car to the track ever, and never got the car back to the track after 1998...

And now we soldier on, with high hopes for the next generation in 2022, but only because we're in a position to pool together two generations of resources.

The only people I ever saw for whom racing didn't "break the bank" were people who had someone else (owner, benefactor, or sponsor) paying the bills. The days of running the family car are no different today than they were 70 years ago. You do it for as long as you can stand and then you take a break.

[mc/rider]

The phrase ( How do you make a million dollars in racing? Start out with 2 million ) was probably coined on the early to mid Thirties

[Charles Nungester]

Growing up watching racing, I seen mostly the same ten cars for the first ten years. The only question was who was in em this year or even this week. Dizz wilson cars, Karl Kinser Cars, Maude Smith cars, Link Cars (Actually a cut down roadster) etc. but they were mostly the same cars, chassis, motors etc.

Talking with several old car owners, They had a couple grand in the cars, when they needed a motor they headed to the junkyard pulled one, put some pistons, bearings, sometimes a cam. The motors weren't 9-1 compression so they didn't destroy themselves so fast. Certain cars actually made a lot of money for both the owner and driver. Tires were a afterthought, You bought Mickey Thompson drags and grooved em or some Double Diamonds, Hell some even ran a truck type snow tire and raced em half the season. Fronts, You just swapped sides at half a season because you only used the RF 80% of the time.

Yeah, it always cost to go racing. Kenny wallace said if you can't afford to run sprints, you should be in mods, If you can't afford that, then you should be in street stocks etc. Fact is, It's all going up, Exponentially. and if you want to do it, You either have the $$$ to do it, Find someone who does or just do it as you can afford too because the love of the sport.

[Gene Franckowiak]

Racig costs no more today that it ever did.....when I started racing in 1975 it took every penny I could get my hands on to race.....and now 47 years later it still takes every penny I can get my hands on to race.....see no change

[TQ29m]

Originally Posted by Gene Franckowiak Racig costs no more today that it ever did.....when I started racing in 1975 it took every penny I could get my hands on to race.....and now 47 years later it still takes every penny I can get my hands on to race.....see no change

The only way I was able to race was that I spent my money buying tools to let me build what I could to defray the cost a lot, and do work for others who needed help, I have a pretty complete machine shop now, but have quit working in it pretty much, just piddle around now, I built several cars in the winter, and a lot of parts, that paid for my racing, was the only way for me to do it, been that way since I was 12, and detasseling seed corn for. 60c an hour, when I started, we had a lot of shops building flathead Ford engines, and I picked up on that pretty quick, and parts were plentiful, and cheap, at least to me, I was in the business, part time, at home in my shop, a lot of hrs, but it and a full time job made it all happen, and I never had to mortgage the farm to go racing, I knew my limits, and did the best with what I had.

[Pitdad]

Originally Posted by Gene Franckowiak Racig costs no more today that it ever did.....when I started racing in 1975 it took every penny I could get my hands on to race.....and now 47 years later it still takes every penny I can get my hands on to race.....see no change

I agree! Now I suspect that statement is made a little tongue-in-cheek, but when we talk about a Speedway Toyota "national engine" in a midget today costing upwards of $80-$100k, what did an Offy cost? Their "D-2" engines were V8-60 Fords or Continental L4 out of a Willys. Nothing different about that than an Ecotec or Kenyon motor. And before that, it was a race-built Miller over a Model A with a Cragar conversion head.

Relative to the cost of living or the standard wage, grass roots racing (on average) is no more or less expensive now than it's ever been. Other than the cost of safety, it's all stayed about the same. And I consider TIG welding chromoly tubing to be a safety function. I know guys welded up their own chassis with a cracker box back in the day. We did it, too. But when you tumbled in one of those black pipe cars, you felt it a lot longer (assuming you got to feel anything afterward...)

[TQ29m]

Originally Posted by Pitdad I agree! Now I suspect that statement is made a little tongue-in-cheek, but when we talk about a Speedway Toyota "national engine" in a midget today costing upwards of $80-$100k, what did an Offy cost? Their "D-2" engines were V8-60 Fords or Continental L4 out of a Willys. Nothing different about that than an Ecotec or Kenyon motor. And before that, it was a race-built Miller over a Model A with a Cragar conversion head. Relative to the cost of living or the standard wage, grass roots racing (on average) is no more or less expensive now than it's ever been. Other than the cost of safety, it's all stayed about the same. And I consider TIG welding chromoly tubing to be a safety function. I know guys welded up their own chassis with a cracker box back in the day. We did it, too. But when you tumbled in one of those black pipe cars, you felt it a lot longer (assuming you got to feel anything afterward...)

I was a certified welder by the age of 16, with aluminum and steel and moly, so I had no problems with my welds, purge welded most every thing, went to Hobart and Miller schools and actually taught at Hobart for a time, I was a full time fabrication person for the company I worked for, and taught people to weld there as needed as well, my machine shop does include a CNC mill that I converted my self, but I didn't do it all at once, as I could find a piece, and afford it, I bought it, and it paid off. According to a tech man from NHRA, I had as good of bends that he had seen, so that made me feel good.

[Ray3]

Racing has always been and will always be expensive. Keeping in mind that "expensive" is a relative term. An Indycar team owner would look at Midget and Sprint Car racing and say its cheap by comparison.

However, I argue that the engine costs, particularly in midget racing, have gotten out of hand.

There is absolutely no reason for $70,000 four cylinder midget engines. In the Badger Midget Series, the cars at Angell Park have turned laps at 14.4 seconds around a 1/3 mile oval with production based engines. The USAC track record is 14.3 and the Badger record with purpose built engines is 14.1 set by Jerry Coons, Jr. How much is .1-.3 seconds a lap worth? Badger engines are so much less its incredible and yet turn virtually the same lap times. Why spend more when you don't have to?

[Pitdad]

Not debating that national engines are extremely high priced compared to the Badger formula for the additional speed you're getting. Same argument was made when the SESCO came out. Same argument was made when the "Offy Killer" started winning. Truth is, that same Badger K24 Honda is already being modified to compete as a "national" engine and will eventually be just as expensive. Who would have guessed that Chet Wilson's small block Chevy would eventually morph into a $100k+ Outlaw Sprint engine?

My original point was that racing has been about the same level of "expensive" through the generations when you compare apples-to-apples. To win (not just compete) at the USAC level today, you must buy a Speedway Toyota midget engine. The average Joe working an entry level warehousing/manufacturing job making $18.00/hr has to work about 4000 hours to buy that engine. To win in the 50's & early 60's in USAC midgets, you had to buy an Offy midget engine. Earning $1.25/hr, you had to work about the same 4000 hours to afford one. Gasoline to get to and from the track, one hour's wage would buy you about 4 gallons of gas in either era. The price tag is higher, but the relative cost to wages is about the same.

So crying about how tough it is to get in or stay in a race car today is not any different an argument than it was 3-4 generations ago. There may be brief moments where costs spike in either direction, but in general, it's the same. And very few are "making" money at it.

[HDbill]

The BADGER argument can't get dismissed that quickly. Because some want to throw stupid money at the Honda K24 doesn't change the fact that the BADGER rules prevent the runaway costs. Because the rules make it so easy to compete without any need to throw money around. That money will not buy you feature wins. In fact they are already at the point that Chevy and Forde/Masda engines win too. And it is back to crew chiefs setting up the cars and driver talent back to making all of the difference. The health of our sport depends on new blood; not more money to buy races and lower car count. Everybody forgets that Sprint cars were originally less expensive Indy cars. Midgets races were built on Curtis copies with V8-60s. The Offies didn't add car count or make the racing better. They just raised the cost to have a shot at competing. 3/4 and Micro midgets were originally intended to be less costly than midgets progressively with the down sizes. Deep pockets changing rules in an effort to buy wins has never helped do anything to improve the competition or shows that put people in the stands. Dedicated ARDC officials froze the engine rules and the net result after Miller took the wings off was solid growth in car count and bargain engines from USAC owners that were selling their obsolete stuff as they continued to pay the higher prices. Badger stayed with the USAC rules until if almost killed them. Production engines SAVED that club when the national engines got outlawed. Some fools with money decided to change the frozen ARDC engine rules to "National" (read USAC) and car count fell off a cliff. The price to play that game became too high for no good reason. There is no "EASTERN SWING" for USAC midgets this year. Because they can't get enough cars to make it. But Badger gets plenty of cars. They are on to something. You can build a NEW long block for far less than it costs to freshen a USAC engine. And they last longer too. Intelligent efforts to contain or lower operating costs can only help our sport grow and thrive.