[LEADERS EDGE]

Duke: I have given the answer several times. Tires.

The cars are there; money for tires isn't.

I have to look through the past 3 years worth of results to give you an accurate answer as to what locals had cars and don't run now. Clayton,Short,Holtsclaw all have/had cars. Chad Boat, Yeley and Steve Ball have a car. Tyler and Steel don't see it beneficial to come run or put together a deal.(I know Steele is in Florida) Epperson loves them, but doesn't see it as something they want to do.

Those are just off the top of my head without any research.

(I am not speaking for any of the people above)

You are under the assumption there aren't any pavement cars sitting around or people who want to run them and that just isn't true. The cost of the cars just isn't the determining factor; it's the cost to run them(Tires).

[Geoff Kaiser]

Originally Posted by 767 Are prices different to?

The tires are within 5-10 dollars a tire with the usac ones being the higher of the two. We can go on all day here, but another problem is the heat cycles of the tires. They just dont last. Its not a wear problem the tires just give up because of cycles. Non wing you need all the help you can get with grip and these tires fall off drastically after 3 heat cycles. With a wing car we can get a few most cycles out of them because of the billboard above are head.

[Lucky161]

Originally Posted by Geoff Kaiser The tires are within 5-10 dollars a tire with the usac ones being the higher of the two. We can go on all day here, but another problem is the heat cycles of the tires. They just dont last. Its not a wear problem the tires just give up because of cycles. Non wing you need all the help you can get with grip and these tires fall off drastically after 3 heat cycles. With a wing car we can get a few most cycles out of them because of the billboard above are head.

So what do you think the answer is? Or do you see it as an unsolvable problem? Tom said he can run HOSS and just buy a right rear. Someone else said that HOSS was getting around 20 cars regularly. As a fan if there was a paved track around here and they had 20 sprint cars running regularly, I'd attend regularly. When I started this thread I wasn't thinking USAC specifically. I am not married to any sanctioning body. If one can't get the job done and another can, I'll just go to the one that can.

[wbr]

Originally Posted by Need For Speed Regarding the yellow text. You do understand who Duke is....right? He was a part of the history that you claim didn't work, but during those times, it worked fine...'combo cars' as you call them, and tires that could be run all day. Plus the guys that ran USAC dirt and pavement, were the guys running at INDY. Today, there is the specialized cars (that are parked), and the over priced/non lasting tires...and look at the car counts. How many of todays active USAC drivers have had a ride in the IRL?

I know who the legendary Duke Cook is and have no issues with his legacy. I didn't claim that the history he was part of didn't work; I do inquire if the "glory days" were so "glorious"- Why did it end? Did it end because USAC quit sanctioning the indy cars?
"USAC sanctioned the race from 1971-1981. The 1981 race was noteworthy as it was the final Indycar race other than the Indianapolis 500 to be sanctioned by USAC. A rag-tag field of Indycars and converted dirt-track cars ran a two-class race."

Originally Posted by SUPERDUKE in 1981 i ran a shore dirt car in the pocono 500 along with bout14 other dirt cars!!!!!!! Where was you at?

I was at work at standard grocery that day. I worked almost every Sunday that summer.


Van Scoy Diamond Mines 500

USAC Indy Car race
Pocono International Raceway, Long Pond, PA
June 21, 1981
122 laps on 2.5 mile paved oval; 305 miles

Fin St Driver # Owner Car Laps Money Status Laps Led
1 1 A.J. Foyt 14 A.J. Foyt 1981 March C04/Cosworth 122 67,685 running 35
2 4 Geoff Brabham 50 Psachie Garza Racing 1980 Penske/Cosworth 122 42,660 running 15
3 14 Tom Bigelow 56 Gohr Distributing Co. 1979 Penske/Chevrolet 122 23,635 running 15
4 9 George Snider 84 A.J. Foyt 1981 Coyote/Cosworth 121 14,710 running 0
5 12 Harry MacDonald 45 Sherman Armstrong Lola/Cosworth 120 10,860 running 0
6 7 Billy Vukovich 42 Harry Schwartz Watson/Offenhauser 119 8,660 running 0
7 2 Jim McElreath 23 Shirley McElreath Eagle/Offenhauser 118 7,985 running 0
8 15 Roger Rager 66 Louis Seymour Wildcat/Chevrolet 113 7,310 wing 0
9 13 Chip Mead 49 Frank Carlone 1981 Eagle 8102/Cosworth 106 6,860 suspension 0
10 21 William Henderson 71 Tom Frantz Eagle/Offenhauser 105 6,410 running 0
11 26 Mark Alderson 97 Steve Enslow D/Chevrolet 104 6,050 running 0
12 24 Jack Hewitt 58 Radio Hospital D/Chevrolet 97 5,870 running 0
13 22 Smokey Snellbaker 54 Charles Lloyd D/Chevrolet 94 5,690 running 0
14 19 Steve Ball 85 Robert Gaby 1971 Coyote/Chevrolet 94 5,510 running 0
15 28 Bill Tyler 57 Lyle Roberts D/Chevrolet 88 5,330 running 0
16 3 Tom Sneva 2 Bignotti-Cotter March/Cosworth 79 5,150 gearbox 56
17 5 Vern Schuppan 33 Red Roof Inns McLaren/Cosworth 76 4,970 oil pressure 1
18 18 Richard Hubbard 26 Shirley McElreath Eagle/Chevrolet 75 4,790 header 0
19 23 Jeff Bloom 11 Cecilia Smith D/Chevrolet 73 4,610 header 0
20 16 Dick Simon 22 Leader Cards Watson/Cosworth 66 4,610 running 0
21 29 Larry Rice 28 Lloyd Weaver D/Chevrolet 65 4,610 running 0
22 17 Dean Vetrock 70 Dean Vetrock Eagle/Chevrolet 57 4,610 fuel pickup 0
23 11 Johnny Parsons 43 Sherman Armstrong 1981 Armstrong SEA 1/Cosworth 37 4,610 radiator 0
24 27 Paul Pitzer 51 GCQ Racing D/Chevrolet 27 4,610 shock 0
25 10 Jerry Sneva 17 Vollstedt Enterprises Vollstedt/Offenhauser 24 4,610 fuel cell 0
26 20 Salt Walther 12 Bignotti-Cotter Phoenix/Cosworth 21 4,610 magneto 0
27 6 Gary Bettenhausen 27 Vollstedt Enterprises Vollstedt/Offenhauser 16 4,610 oil pressure 0
28 25 Duke Cook 25 Michael Aberle D/Chevrolet 6 4,610 engine 0
29 8 Jan Sneva 98 Agajanian-King King/Chevrolet 4 4,610 engine 0


Notes: Qualifying rained out; starting order determined by random draw.
The race was scheduled for 200 laps but ended early because of rain.
CART refused permission for its members to participate in this race.
USAC allowed Silver Crown cars to enter in order to fill the field, though the drivers were not eligible to score championship points.
USAC evicted the teams of Jerry O'Connell, Dan Gurney, Fletcher Racing, Brayton Racing, and H & R Racing from their garage space in Gasoline Alley for not participating in the race.
Tom Sneva, Tom Bigelow, Dick Simon, Jim McElreath, Geoff Brabham, Roger Rager, and Dean Vetrock were suspended for 60 days by CART for competing in the race.
Sneva and Simon had their suspensions overturned by a court injunction taking effect on June 29. CART declined to appeal.
The race is often listed as taking place on June 14, but was held on its scheduled date of June 21 as listed here.
Time of race: 02:13.23
Average Speed: 137.196 MPH
7 cautions for 28 laps
Race Purse: $ 332,840

Impressive run Superduke.
$4610 isn't a bad payday either, especially in 1981 money.
Your dirt chassis doesn't look too competitive against the specialized indy cars. If we got rid of those and ran dirt chassis at indy would that help bring back the glory days?

I think Leaders Edge has hit on the current problem, its the cost of tires to be competitive. I don't know the answer, but I do feel he has narrowed down the problem.

one more thing- its going to be a long winter if things stay like this...

[Need For Speed]

Originally Posted by wbr I know who the legendary Duke Cook is and have no issues with his legacy. I didn't claim that the history he was part of didn't work; I do inquire if the "glory days" were so "glorious"- Why did it end? Did it end because USAC quit sanctioning the indy cars?

The AAA then USAC, was the training ground/proving ground to get to INDY.

IMO, The 'glory days' of USAC sprint cars started to end when USAC in their infinite wisdom allowed the 'special cars'. Until then teams had 1 car (or maybe 1 and a 'back up') that they ran on dirt and pavement. USAC allowed the start of the dirt car/pavement car BS in the sprint (and midget divisions), and it has continually evolved from there, to the point that the 2 chassis a VERY different.

The has to be more than just the cost of tires that is keeping the 'pavement only' midgets and sprints in the garages.

There has to be many reasons keeping 'local' guys from having 'pavement only' cars to run Salem, Winchester, etc.

The glory days started to end at INDY when the rear engine cars showed up. The Europeans had experience in the rear engine cars, and 'we' didn't. It is still the same. The IRL was supposed to change that...but, well, you know.

The heros of USAC, WoO, ASCoC, HOSS, AVSS, Indiana 'local' track champions, etc, etc, etc....where are they at in May?......sure as hell ain't at the Speedway, unless it's to watch.

USAC has stepped on thier pee-pees many times. Look at a recent screw up on thier part. The absolutely fugly and insanely expensive, 'pavement only' Champ Cars. That went over like a turd in the punch bowl.

Maybe the car owners of the day, should have raised hell with USAC when they wanted to allow the 'pavement only' cars years ago, then we wouldn't be discussing this.

[Go Fast]

Originally Posted by Honest-Sam As an owner, would you have kept racing on asphalt if you could have run the same car on dirt and pavement?

Probably not. The car wasn't the issue, it was the tires. I spent more on tires than the roller cost.

I can't understand why an average passenger car tire costs around $90 and a race tire cost me $250. There are a
lot more components involved in making a street tire. Maybe it has something to do with the number of choices there are for tires and the fact there is actually some competition in the market.

I know of three pretty good pavement cars that are just sitting. Those guys don't have the money to go and test like the big teams so they just stay parked.

[wbr]

I feel you are right about the road to indy being closed to our open wheel drivers at this time, I wish I knew what it would take (other than a big check) to open that highway back up again.

I think the evolution of the specialty chassis we have today is merely that and nothing sinister. Back in Dukes day alot of local racers built their own chassis in their garages at home. One guy tried something out of the box and it worked so the next guy did the same thing and so on. Then a couple of smart cookies (Bob & the Bopper) decided to really get out of the box and bam! you have todays pavement only cars. My knowledge of dirt chassis is very limited but I think they are just as specific or special. We should be happy we only need 2 different chassis' for a USAC championship. Look at nascar prior to the cot- they had a chassis built special for nearly every track they raced.

I think limiting the chassis limits innovation and thats a big part of racing, or it was anyway. I bet the cot is scrapped in a couple of years and thought of as a big mistake.

[SUPERDUKE]

Originally Posted by wbr i know who the legendary duke cook is and have no issues with his legacy. I didn't claim that the history he was part of didn't work; i do inquire if the "glory days" were so "glorious"- why did it end? Did it end because usac quit sanctioning the indy cars? "usac sanctioned the race from 1971-1981. The 1981 race was noteworthy as it was the final indycar race other than the indianapolis 500 to be sanctioned by usac. A rag-tag field of indycars and converted dirt-track cars ran a two-class race." i was at work at standard grocery that day. I worked almost every sunday that summer. Van scoy diamond mines 500 usac indy car race pocono international raceway, long pond, pa june 21, 1981 122 laps on 2.5 mile paved oval; 305 miles fin st driver # owner car laps money status laps led 1 1 a.j. Foyt 14 a.j. Foyt 1981 march c04/cosworth 122 67,685 running 35 2 4 geoff brabham 50 psachie garza racing 1980 penske/cosworth 122 42,660 running 15 3 14 tom bigelow 56 gohr distributing co. 1979 penske/chevrolet 122 23,635 running 15 4 9 george snider 84 a.j. Foyt 1981 coyote/cosworth 121 14,710 running 0 5 12 harry macdonald 45 sherman armstrong lola/cosworth 120 10,860 running 0 6 7 billy vukovich 42 harry schwartz watson/offenhauser 119 8,660 running 0 7 2 jim mcelreath 23 shirley mcelreath eagle/offenhauser 118 7,985 running 0 8 15 roger rager 66 louis seymour wildcat/chevrolet 113 7,310 wing 0 9 13 chip mead 49 frank carlone 1981 eagle 8102/cosworth 106 6,860 suspension 0 10 21 william henderson 71 tom frantz eagle/offenhauser 105 6,410 running 0 11 26 mark alderson 97 steve enslow d/chevrolet 104 6,050 running 0 12 24 jack hewitt 58 radio hospital d/chevrolet 97 5,870 running 0 13 22 smokey snellbaker 54 charles lloyd d/chevrolet 94 5,690 running 0 14 19 steve ball 85 robert gaby 1971 coyote/chevrolet 94 5,510 running 0 15 28 bill tyler 57 lyle roberts d/chevrolet 88 5,330 running 0 16 3 tom sneva 2 bignotti-cotter march/cosworth 79 5,150 gearbox 56 17 5 vern schuppan 33 red roof inns mclaren/cosworth 76 4,970 oil pressure 1 18 18 richard hubbard 26 shirley mcelreath eagle/chevrolet 75 4,790 header 0 19 23 jeff bloom 11 cecilia smith d/chevrolet 73 4,610 header 0 20 16 dick simon 22 leader cards watson/cosworth 66 4,610 running 0 21 29 larry rice 28 lloyd weaver d/chevrolet 65 4,610 running 0 22 17 dean vetrock 70 dean vetrock eagle/chevrolet 57 4,610 fuel pickup 0 23 11 johnny parsons 43 sherman armstrong 1981 armstrong sea 1/cosworth 37 4,610 radiator 0 24 27 paul pitzer 51 gcq racing d/chevrolet 27 4,610 shock 0 25 10 jerry sneva 17 vollstedt enterprises vollstedt/offenhauser 24 4,610 fuel cell 0 26 20 salt walther 12 bignotti-cotter phoenix/cosworth 21 4,610 magneto 0 27 6 gary bettenhausen 27 vollstedt enterprises vollstedt/offenhauser 16 4,610 oil pressure 0 28 25 duke cook 25 michael aberle d/chevrolet 6 4,610 engine 0 29 8 jan sneva 98 agajanian-king king/chevrolet 4 4,610 engine 0 notes: Qualifying rained out; starting order determined by random draw. The race was scheduled for 200 laps but ended early because of rain. Cart refused permission for its members to participate in this race. Usac allowed silver crown cars to enter in order to fill the field, though the drivers were not eligible to score championship points. Usac evicted the teams of jerry o'connell, dan gurney, fletcher racing, brayton racing, and h & r racing from their garage space in gasoline alley for not participating in the race. Tom sneva, tom bigelow, dick simon, jim mcelreath, geoff brabham, roger rager, and dean vetrock were suspended for 60 days by cart for competing in the race. Sneva and simon had their suspensions overturned by a court injunction taking effect on june 29. Cart declined to appeal. The race is often listed as taking place on june 14, but was held on its scheduled date of june 21 as listed here. Time of race: 02:13.23 average speed: 137.196 mph 7 cautions for 28 laps race purse: $ 332,840 impressive run superduke. $4610 isn't a bad payday either, especially in 1981 money. Your dirt chassis doesn't look too competitive against the specialized indy cars. If we got rid of those and ran dirt chassis at indy would that help bring back the glory days? I think leaders edge has hit on the current problem, its the cost of tires to be competitive. I don't know the answer, but i do feel he has narrowed down the problem. One more thing- its going to be a long winter if things stay like this...

it paid $7000 to start!!!!!!!!!!! And i was the guy that made this race happen!!!!!!!!!!!!i talked to the promoter to add the dirt cars to make this race happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He got it touch with roger mcclusky and made there deal! I called the dirt car owners and we all made money$$$$$ i started the race drove back to my open wheel trailer and left the place with &7000 150 gallons of free fuel and 8 free new goodyears!!!!!!!!! How much have you made in one race with your pavement car?????

[LEADERS EDGE]

I really think if the tire costs were addressed; that would have an immediate impact and then start working on other problems in the order of which they would help get and keep cars. Sure not every car is parked for that reason, but I would venture to say that at least 95% of them are.

[Hclarke]

Was curious if I could find an image from that race:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2766684...n/photostream/

And this one is a real treat. Scroll down to the Sept 2, 2009 item.

https://openwheelracers3.com/Vintage.html