[i love dirt track racing]

Originally Posted by rockstar5 How can anyone stick up for USAC if these are facts. Fans need to boycott USAC. I'm a huge open wheel fan but I know how tough it is to race week to week. We need to get behind must see,POWERi,MSCS,USSA. I'm not sure why anyone would stand behind USAC. I want open wheel racing to survive but USAC is the reason it is dying. Support the sanctioning bodies that care about the sport, not the big wigs that are getting rich sitting in an office.

I really like the boss . They always have great car counts and have great payouts thru the field i would keep a eye on them. I will go to go to the burg sat. To watch them run. They care about teams and fans.

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by ShamrockRacin'48G Last year during Sprintweek I asked via IOW if sprint week could happen without USAC sanction-I was basically vilified-but my reason for asking was more of a question of how many $$ USAC sucks off from a week where they basically contribute nothing??? I mean really if the track owners collaborated, sprintweek could be just as successful, provided USAC didn't schedule against it... My original question remains, what does USAC bring to the table when a track is successful regularly without them? The answers to my post last year were organization, insurance, and promotion-.... But the regular shows I see in Indiana are already well organized, apparently insured, and very well promoted before the big gorilla comes to town...just seems to me like I pay 5-10 bucks more at the gate to fund their brand of BS...

Sprint week was put together by promoters and was not USAC for many years, Most of those promoters are no longer in the business and some of the tracks have changed around. But the series fledged along and paid squat after third place. Sometimes they'd have good car counts. sometimes not. Depending on how many other shows were going on. It was even winged for a few years. The Attendance was never huge until Several years after USAC took over the series and is just in recent years becoming SRO crowds,

Heres what I do know, A couple of the tracks would not be here today without their USAC shows. They break even or lose on their weekly program and mostly survive the weekly's on their track sponsorships they have gotten, A portion of many tracks weekly attendance is comped or discounted. Promoters promoting getting butts in the seats trying to get some to come back as a paying customer. A USAC show a huge majority of attendees is PAID FULL PRICE.

So boycott USAC, your only hurting yourself. At least one weekly IN Sprint track is one or two shows away from locking the gates for good. A USAC show and a successful Sprint Week and Midget week show are about the only thing that make it worthwhile to keep the gates open.

The Subject here was Midgets and more specifically USAC pavement midgets. Wheres the support groups? When I was growing up, there was Cora, then Namars and other orgs running around that some would run some USAC or move on to USAC? They ran pavement and dirt IN THE SAME CAR. Mt. Lawn is shuttered (A feeder) Thursday night thunder 30 years in the past. Not much left here, Barnhorst running one indoor midget show that forty year old cars can win. You'll see that very few other places and many of them cars wouldn't be competitive at IRP or even legal, let alone safe.

Powri has pretty much taken over those who would race midgets a lot and they are mainly IL, WI and MO. with two stops this year in IN at Bloomington and Brownstown followed by IL midget week and USAC midget week, which also tracks took a chance on and is basically as spinoff of Sprint Week (And quite honestly wouldn't have survived without sprints also on the card the first couple years) has been a success. You have a couple tracks in IN trying to run some midget shows independently. Kokomos run a couple the past several years, Still haven't seen a full field other than USAC Midget Week and now Midget Grand Prix.

Ossuks has a lot of good points, A ton of people who put their lives into racing,car owner, promoters etc who worked at USAC to build it up were tossed, Kevin was brought in to clear up a several million deficit that USAC got into by several things namely a huge money loosing R&D Pavement Silver Crown car and a 50th anniversary history book that they took a huge hit on because the majority of race fans could not shell out the 125 dollar asking price. They ended up selling this book for 25 dollars or giving it away with a USAC club membership or something like that.

Does it justify the salary he's getting? IDK. I ask, Is the ship righted? because the product is suffering. Most teams are full time workers of some kind of jobs outside racing, Large sponsors are very hard to come by and even landing one often doesn't pay half the cost of running a season even if you already have shop/hauler/crew.

They've taken one step with Andy Hillenburg, They need more, at least one experienced die hard in each division who knows the ins and outs of every aspect. I also think Pavement/dirt should be part of the national championship in all divisions.

Again, Solutions are what we need. Boycotting? Thats your choice but its not helping anything. USAC needs several things to grow, Very few of them I see happening. It needs Sponsors, Lots of sponsors, Contengency sponsors. Media outlets. In the day of Google targeted marketing everyone who's ever searched racing/race track etc should be getting USAC ads on their facebook, Youtube videos. Don't think it can be done? I get adds on IOW of Lebanon Mason Monroe Railroad and Whitewater Valley RR and other places just because Railfaning is a hobby, I do a search of a herb and I see ads all over the net, Where to get it etc.

I don't have many solutions, but there are people who do.
There is some truth to the fact that often when a solution is put on the table its quickly squashed by someone putting thousands on the table to stop it from happening. I also know that some of the requested solutions aren't wanted by the teams.

There should be some meetings USAC/Owners/promoters. Product makers should be locked out and any offers approved by both owners and tracks and should benefit such owners and tracks and their drivers.

The time is now. Already there'd be no Terre Haute without USAC, No racing cars at the Indy Fairgrounds, As I said a couple of the weeklys would probably be closed or will close without a USAC show and Midget/sprint week. There'd be no Eastern Storm Staab built that and now a couple other series helping NW racing grow in the area.

I've said enuff, Solution based discussion is all i care to take part in. There is no stupid Ideas. Only ones that would work and ones that wouldn't. It should be all thrown on the table. The best ideas tried but most importantly People who know in many cases what works and what doesn't to form a starting point.

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by i love dirt track racing I really like the boss . They always have great car counts and have great payouts thru the field i would keep a eye on them. I will go to go to the burg sat. To watch them run. They care about teams and fans.

Might want to check your fact sheet as most purses are same as local shows or less. However its a series run by a racer who treats his people right, He gets a sponsor, he adds heat race money, contingencies, hard luck, steel block, hooser/american racer, no matter.

Most of all, he personally thanks the teams and promoters. Built his own race track for feeder which many may not even become sprint car racers.

Boss is a good thing, We need series like it for midgets running NE Indiana, NW OH and a few other venues around the area. IL Has Powri PA has ARDC. Could you see Midgets at Waynesfield FIVE WIDE like at the Burg? I can dream.........

[rockstar5]

I'm not sure what the rumble has to do with this but as far as the 40 year old cars running outdoors and not being competitive or safe I'll start with this: the cars you speak of are indoor specialized cars. It's not like they are 40 year old cars that they threw some new rubber on and go out and win races. Some of them guys have as much money in them as a new car and as far as safe, I don't think I would want to hit the wall at Winchester in one of them but I've seen some of them knock down the wall and change a front axle and be right back out on the track. That's neither here nor there, I'm not trying to turn this in to a pi**ing match. I want to see open wheel racing survive. I have a young son and as we all hope with our young ones I've got the next Larson. I'm kind of baffled that the 1 or 2 races a year that USAC brings to these tracks are the only reason they are open. These tracks are pretty well full for the weekly shows and there's not much promotion for these races including sprint week/midget week, not at least as far as I see. The fans at these races know what it is and look forward to them. I don't see USAC out promoting these shows. I live in Anderson, Indiana and when Must See is coming to town you know it. Everywhere you look there are flyers. As far as supporting USAC, in 2010 the night before the 500 had 41 cars, 2011 had 34, 2012 had 32, 2013 had 23, and 2014 only had 11. So USAC has had there chance. They don't care about their drivers, they only care about there pockets. I hope open wheel racing survives but I could care less about USAC. Honestly, I'm not sure how you separate the two but it's gonna happen. Whether it's USAC runs it the rest of the way in the ground or one of the other sanctioning bodies picks up the pieces and somehow puts them back together.

[captrat]

Originally Posted by rockstar5 How can anyone stick up for USAC if these are facts. Fans need to boycott USAC. I'm a huge open wheel fan but I know how tough it is to race week to week. We need to get behind must see,POWERi,MSCS,USSA. I'm not sure why anyone would stand behind USAC. I want open wheel racing to survive but USAC is the reason it is dying. Support the sanctioning bodies that care about the sport, not the big wigs that are getting rich sitting in an office.

1. History in all kinds of things demonstrate that most boycotts seldom produce desirable results.

2. One of the most important parts of your post is "if these are the facts". I would not boycott or move against anything until these assertions are verified and reverified; then they become "facts".

[rockstar5]

Originally Posted by captrat 1. History in all kinds of things demonstrate that most boycotts seldom produce desirable results. 2. One of the most important parts of your post is "if these are the facts". I would not boycott or move against anything until these assertions are verified and reverified; then they become "facts".

I agree in most cases, boycotts seldom produce the results you are looking for but obviously support isn't getting it done either. USAC needs to figure it out and I would think that POWRi taking the dirt midgets and bringing them back to life the way they have would be an eye opener. USAC needs us drivers/fans as much, if not more than, we need USAC. It's just discouraging to see they are paying these kinds of salaries and getting the car counts they are getting. Like I said, I've been a USAC member in the past and for what? USAC could care less. I wanna see open wheel racing survive but honestly I feel if another division of open wheel falls like the silver crown stuff did USAC will pick up another series like rock crawlers or something. Who knows, you don't walk away if your passionate about something.

[Kellen Conover]

Wow, there are nine million points I want to comment on here but will try to keep it concise. First, I get that everyone is jaded by USAC, thinking it could be run better, but as much as I may not agree with him, I am told that through all the additional series income, that Mr. Miller has been able to rectify a budget that was severely in the red. Those numbers above are very large, but represent all of USAC's endeavors, not just the big three that are mentioned here. He is a business man and while he doesn't maybe grasp the series as much as some wish, I truly believe he understands how to bring in enough revunue to sustain the series, then give those that do a longer leash to operate with.

I think some need to realize that Usac is our professional level.

Motorsports as a whole is struggling in this day and age.

[Kuhn74]

This has been a pretty good read going on for a few days now.......(but since I retired I have time for that)

The original topic of this thread (I think) was about the lack of cars at Raceway Park. It sure was disappointing to read about. I do not have the answer for how to fix it. I don't even have any good suggestions. I can tell you (for a fact) that I sat in on the USAC Competition Committee meetings for lots of years on 16th street (and wasted my breath/time). Several years ago after USAC split up the National Sprint Car Championship and only included the dirt races towards National points we all witnessed how that turned out. The following season it came up about doing the same thing with the midgets. I recall it being more of a "we are going to do this" than a "what do you guys think about this." The sales pitch given at the time was all about building car counts. If we split the series up and have a pavement champ, and a dirt champ, that will entice competitors that only have one kind of car to come compete with USAC. Mr. Miller's contention was that people would come compete for that illustrious National Championship that wouldn't otherwise because now they don't need (2) cars. It didn't work. Period. THERE IS AND SHOULD BE, ONLY ONE NATIONAL CHAMPION (IMO). Basically, we are diluting the product by having more than one Champion. Mr. Miller was reminded at that time that it didn't work with the sprint car series. I think Saturday night was decisive proof that his theory was wrong.

I am not bashing Kevin Miller on this, just providing some facts that were brought up to him many years ago when the future was being decided. They seem to be playing themselves out like most of the owners/drivers thought they would. I really feel sorry for the many dedicated car owners that have expensive museum pieces sitting in their garage right now.

There have been a lot of promises and smoke/mirrors from Mr. Miller over the years. Anyone remember the Red Bull Super Speedway midget series he was going to have. All big paying midget races on big tracks. Seems sort of the opposite these days. How about when he took the majority of the point fund money away for several years and had the "USAC National Drivers Championship?"


Here is how that debacle worked out for those of us that raced for money to pay our bills.

2009: Midget Champion, $10,000 - Second, appx. $6,500 - Third, appx $4,500 - Fourth thru Tenth paid out (10th around $1,000)
2010: Midget Champion, $5,000 - Second, $3,000 - Third, $2,000 - Fourth thru Tenth, ZERO

2009: Sprint Champion, $10,000 - Second thru Tenth paid out (not sure exact numbers, never ran enough to get a check)
2010: Sprint Champion, $5,000 - Second, $3,000 - Third, $2,000 - Fourth thru Tenth, ZERO

2009: S.C. Champion, $10,000- Second thru Tenth paid out (not sure exact numbers, never ran enough to get a check)
2010: Not sure how it was paid out.


Mr. Miller sold this huge bill of goods that he was EXPANDING THE POINTS FUNDS paid out by USAC to include the TOP 10 finishers in the USAC NATIONAL DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIP. What he didn't explain was that he stole/took most of the money away from the guys that supported him all year in order to create the new point fund. If you look at the numbers above: The total paid out for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd (4th-10th were not paid anything) in 2010 was equal to what the Champion received in 2009. Where did all of the other money go from 2nd-10th in 2009? Essentially, USAC was on the hook in 2010 for what they paid the Champ in 2009 and the rest of the money went towards the National Driver Points Fund. That isn't creating a new points fund. That is redistributing wealth in a sense.

As Mr. OSSUKS stated earlier, the money has been vanishing for years. The Hoosier money, the contingency money, lots of stuff. It all sounds great until you learn more about it. I had breakfast with Steve Lotshaw (1979 USAC National Midget Champion) the morning after I won the title in 2009. In 1979, Steve made $500 more for winning the Championship than I did in 2009. That is just the prize money. That does not include all of the free product and other things he received during the season in 1980. As corporate sponsorship has evolved, where did all of the money go?

Anyways, I digress...............just another example of his greatness I guess. It was good for a couple of guys for a couple of years.


Fact of the matter for all of this is, it is a very sad time to own a midget. Period.


For those out there carrying the POWRi flag around and jumping from the USAC ship to the POWRi ship, look a little closer at the money trail there. POWRi is a FOR-Profit corp. Those nice race cars don't pay for themselves. Those (all 3 of them) big rigs don't produce their own diesel fuel to get them up and down the road. Any coincidence that the series sponsors are also on the personal cars? Is it just because it's all in the family? Keep in mind you can easily spend $500+ on decals alone to make a car look nice.

Not bashing Kenny Brown here either. Just saying, before everyone goes hauling POWRi up on their shoulders as the savior of midget racing, look a little deeper. POWRi points championship pays out a whopping amount of money. The owner and driver split $5,000. Second place pays $1,000. Third place pays $600 and it goes down from there. Follow a series for an entire season and run second in the championship and get $1,000. (Not as big a slap in the face as Kevin Millers $400k+ Salary or downtown apartment, but not exactly kosher either). How about KBR cutting the payout for the micro's at Angell Park in 2014. As the series grows, lets cut the pay, that is a nice way to say thank you to the competitors for supporting the group. Especially when they don't race for much anyways. Where are the rest of the guys that started with the breakaway POWRi group (originally Gateway Racing Inc.) Jim Siner? Steve Knepper? They all just virtually disappeared.

5 years ago, out of his own mouth.........Kenny Brown told me that his success stemmed from racing 25 times a year on small tracks within 2 hours or so of St. Louis. His points fund was minimal but he promised of prospects on the horizon for bigger things and a point fund comparable to USAC's or better. FAST FORWARD 5 years...........his schedule is bigger than it has ever been, traveling farther and more often than they used to and a point fund that is only better for the Champion, everything else pays the same as it did in the beginning. Viewing it from the outside looking in, maybe they are growing too big, too quick trying to emulate another group that is going down hill anyways.


One thing is for sure with both of these groups and both of these business men. They hold thankless positions in thankless endeavors.

Time will tell I guess............thanks for the read up to this point.

BK

[ossuks]

A boycott of USAC races by the fans would hurt the promoters the most, then the trickle down effect would hurt the owners/drivers...that is not the answer...so please do not let this thread turn into any fans not supporting grass roots racers!!! But, if USAC brought back the Safety Team that once traveled with them and that led to a safer series for the competitors then this thread was worth the effort!!
Someone mentioned something about me returning to USAC, that is not the answer either....my life has changed so much in the last few years, I found a life that does not revolve around the next road trip!! Again, if people boycott events then the wrong people will suffer the most!! So, get out, buy a ticket and support the ones that need it the most! That's my final .02 worth!

[Charles Nungester]

Rockstar, I was refering to Ft. Wayne as being a developmental and being one of only a few going on. Mt. Lawn etc. Wilsons, Armstrongs etc all came through em.

i also thing both Pavement and dirt are whats gotten many of our stars to Nascar.

I couldn't for the life of me figure out why Coons didn't have a Champ Car ride at IRP. Hes only a triple crown winner. Even though that show did have a decent turnout, it was far from healthy both in cars and attendance.