[openwheel44]

First off......I deal with OSHA on a daily basis. If they ever show up for any reason, we are toast.

25# is 25# to me. Like you said before...."What is so hard to understand?" Understand this........ Where is the positive proof alky is the do all end all fuel compared to gas that warrants any weight difference? Pretty simple question. What would everyone's attitude be if the roles would be reversed? Or if someone figures out a way to get E85 to make substantially more power by spending a little more money on parts to maximize output HP and the "powers" think we all ought to "go green," save the planet and mandate a weight advantage for the E85 cars? You think the gas guys won't have a hissy fit? Imagine how stupid us alky guys could get then!!! LOL Besides......I think you could look a lot farther past the alky issue if you want to save the "new guy"money if you think fuel related costs might deter entrants. Please don't get me started.........

To be honest......I wasn't necessarily thinking of a National Series with points and such. I was just thinking of a "standard set of basic rules" to use at major events to start out with. A way to attract the maximum number of entrants. Look at how the Illinois deal went over. I haven't checked it lately but it appeared to me quite a few are NOT planning on going next year due to this fuel issue and somewhat due to the weight concerns. I don't see the need for an bonafide Organization at this time.....just aggreed to general rules. Then see how it goes. Groups are talking now and comparing their rules....get it better organized is all I am saying and consistant. If people want a 970-1000# car.....fine. I don't. I will do something else or I will continue to simply race where I do now and forget the ocassional traveling idea. Pretty simple.

[El1teBr33ze]

It's not the fuel costs I was talking about. It's the conversions they might need to feel competitive if they had a gas motor. This has nothing to do with fuel costs. And I don't want to get you started because I've already read every post you've had on ILSA and Mark's facebook about "saving money."

You're right. But if you have basic rules for major events then the best idea is to have the same rules for those organizations participating. There is no NEED for a large organization, it would just be for the better right now. But like I said, this isn't something that can happen overnight.

What needs to be done is what you said...groups are talking and comparing their rules. They all need to be consistent. I don't think 970-1000# would be a consistent rule. Like I said, organizations can't keep it that way.

And with your last statement, you're basically saying MLS won't abide by national rules if they were established. - scratch this, i misread. There will NEVER be a national rule of 970-1000#.

[DAD]

MY VIEWS on tail tanks, Bladders and Fuel tanks in general. We have run a tail tank for many years now because they make the car look like a real midget (That was Bill Felkers Thoughts). We started out with 600cc cars and generally started the race with 4 gallons of VP sloshing down in the bottom of this big old 27 gal tail tank tank. We moved up to the 1000cc cars and started the race off with 5 gallons of Vp sloshing down in the bottom of this big old tank. Now we have gone big time and start the race with up to 7 gallons of pure methanol. My fuel bill went way down with the change to methanol.

Back in the day of the 1200cc cars and mechanical injection I guess it was common to start races with up to 15 to 20 gallons of methanol in the tank. We have come very far with our new fangled stuff and have cut our fuel millage in half.

Some of us however have clung to the theory that we still need bladders. If we still had 20 gallons of fuel in there I would also recomend them, However with such small amounts of fuel present I think Bladders are a $1000.00 overkill for our sport left over from another time. The little plastic tanks under a fiberglass tail work fine as well.

I left another group several years ago threatning to protest some racers without bladders in their tail tanks. I never went back however these guys had to go spend the extra money for new tanks and bladders looking back I'm not too proud of that. I also purchased a bladder because I was the guy throwing stones. I dont feel a bit safer with this thing because I still don't have to fill it to the top or for that matter even to the ledge.

MMSA has left the bladder "recomended optional" giving the racer an option. Unless we start running longer races I see no need to require them. It might be a good time to go back and reconsider this rule also.
Times are tuff racing is expensive and that thousand dollars would go a long way in paying for fuel pump controller (about $50.00).

---------- Post added at 4:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 3:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by openwheel44 First off......I deal with OSHA on a daily basis. If they ever show up for any reason, we are toast. 25# is 25# to me. Like you said before...."What is so hard to understand?" Understand this........ Where is the positive proof alky is the do all end all fuel compared to gas that warrants any weight difference? Pretty simple question. What would everyone's attitude be if the roles would be reversed? Or if someone figures out a way to get E85 to make substantially more power by spending a little more money on parts to maximize output HP and the "powers" think we all ought to "go green," save the planet and mandate a weight advantage for the E85 cars? You think the gas guys won't have a hissy fit? Imagine how stupid us alky guys could get then!!! LOL Besides......I think you could look a lot farther past the alky issue if you want to save the "new guy"money if you think fuel related costs might deter entrants. Please don't get me started......... To be honest......I wasn't necessarily thinking of a National Series with points and such. I was just thinking of a "standard set of basic rules" to use at major events to start out with. A way to attract the maximum number of entrants. Look at how the Illinois deal went over. I haven't checked it lately but it appeared to me quite a few are NOT planning on going next year due to this fuel issue and somewhat due to the weight concerns. I don't see the need for an bonafide Organization at this time.....just aggreed to general rules. Then see how it goes. Groups are talking now and comparing their rules....get it better organized is all I am saying and consistant. If people want a 970-1000# car.....fine. I don't. I will do something else or I will continue to simply race where I do now and forget the ocassional traveling idea. Pretty simple.

If OSHA shows up we have already "toasted someone"
Come on over and run MMSA with us we weigh over a 1000 lbs and I havent seen too many people we can't out run on a good night.

[openwheel44]

I don't know what MLS would do. Not my place to say. But I won't comply. I'll do something else. MLS just had their yearly rules meeting. Good meeting. Especially since they didn't feel the need to start jacking with the weight rules for any reason......fuel or otherwise. They have a good set of COMMON SENSE rules and they stick with them. Presently, they see the fuel situation as equal and fair comparing gas and alky because.....here we go.......no one has produced anything to tell them otherwise. Go figure. I am fortunate to have such a good group to run with.

[STUMPS88]

With alittle extra tweaking w/fuel,and other expensive goodies you can get a ''STOCK'' motor to have the same if not more HP than one on alky... How come people cant put 2 and 2 together?

Keep bangen ur heads against the wall on this subject...

[DAD]

When you really get them up and ring them out on gasoline these motors sure run hot. I was probably making more power on VP but it cost more and I spent a ton of money on Radiators and fans. A lot of racers in mini sprints are not really racing and working their motors to the max any how, these guys can get by with anything and nothing is going to get them going any faster. For the guy working them alky is really the way to go and no amount of weight is going to slow them down. Back when we ran gas our average EGT was between 1350 and 1550 degrees f. On Alky it down to about 1100 degrees. I put a smaller radiator on and I threw away my fan.

I can remember one expensive goodie. It was a 4 core Griffin Nascar radiator for my little Beast 600 car it cost $650.00 back in 1996 it worked.

[El1teBr33ze]

As I said before, I couldn't care less about what fuel is ran or what weight cars are at...but with this thread I just want to get somewhere where everyone is at least half way happy and are willing to run anywhere.

[buckshot3448]

This topic is about beat to death. there will never be natinoal rules its not going to happen. The only reason this even came up was because ILSA changed the alky rule to 1000# as well as banning it from 2013 and on in hopes that the newcomer is going to be more interested in coming into the sport and being able to compete. So my question is then why would we limit him or her to the number of cars out there that are for sale? Atleast 50% of the cars out there today are on alcohol. So now if someone found a good deal on a alky car they have to spend more money to convert it back to gas? It doesnt make since we need to leave things the way they were and stop trying to change stuff. Also im all for the new people coming in to the sport we have to have them to keep the class going but if we think that they can come off the streets and buy a car and compete the first year out your crazy. In dirt racing experience is everything. A little skill and luck also goes a long ways. Everyone was competitive already at 925 for gas and 950 for alky. In fact im pretty sure not one race was won buy a alky car in the ILSA in 2011 during there regular season. Im done arguing about the topic its been beat to death and the people who have there ways set are going to keep them that way. Maybe it will work maybe it wont. Im going to go run where i can run my alky car and not have to had 80lbs of weight and if one day alky is banned in the 1000cc then i guess ill just go race 600's again.

Also i noticed that they raced the gas weight in the ILSA series from 925 to 950 on gas. this doesnt make any sense at all. Now everyone that comes over to race has to add weight to race. Why not just make it 925 and 975 i think alot more people would have been satisfied with that.

[Quantrill]

Very good points buckshot,,,but here is the problem. ILSA is putting any alky car so far behind in being competitive on any given night becuase they have to put 50-75 pounds more weight on the cars then gas guys no one will travel to there series. And the alky car they have may not show up. Except for the highly successful national event there car count was 10-12 a night. Leaves a little to be desired in car count. Now you going to maybe take 3-4 cars out on any given night because of there screwed up rules. I dont see how this make since when you're trying to build a series. Car count is everything.

I ask as openwheell44 ask,,, if anyone can produce a non bias dyno sheet on how alky car are so much better then gas cars I sure would like to see it. The dyno sheet I produce was from a guy I used to tune my car and he also tuned another cars. The gas graph was after tuning the car. They could not keep it cool so they then put the alky kit on it and tune it. So this dyno sheet is not a scenario that you dyno a strait gas car then you put an alky kit on the same motor and dyno it to show the difference. Or use high octane race gas vs alky to show the difference. This is a strait up un bias dyno pull. Feel free to call the number on the sheet and talk to Richard if you dont believe me. Absulotely no reason to strap a bunch a weight on the alky car to even up the cars.

If any club is going to stack a bunch of weight on alky cars then they should do the same from older stock 1000cc motors to newer ones. 2005 motors around 175 HP,,,newer motor around 200 HP what is the difference? After all poor little me cant afford a new motor this year how about a little help from my local racing group.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by buckshot3448 This topic is about beat to death. there will never be natinoal rules its not going to happen. The only reason this even came up was because ILSA changed the alky rule to 1000# as well as banning it from 2013 and on in hopes that the newcomer is going to be more interested in coming into the sport and being able to compete. So my question is then why would we limit him or her to the number of cars out there that are for sale? Atleast 50% of the cars out there today are on alcohol. So now if someone found a good deal on a alky car they have to spend more money to convert it back to gas? It doesnt make since we need to leave things the way they were and stop trying to change stuff. Also im all for the new people coming in to the sport we have to have them to keep the class going but if we think that they can come off the streets and buy a car and compete the first year out your crazy. In dirt racing experience is everything. A little skill and luck also goes a long ways. Everyone was competitive already at 925 for gas and 950 for alky. In fact im pretty sure not one race was won buy a alky car in the ILSA in 2011 during there regular season. Im done arguing about the topic its been beat to death and the people who have there ways set are going to keep them that way. Maybe it will work maybe it wont. Im going to go run where i can run my alky car and not have to had 80lbs of weight and if one day alky is banned in the 1000cc then i guess ill just go race 600's again. Also i noticed that they raced the gas weight in the ILSA series from 925 to 950 on gas. this doesnt make any sense at all. Now everyone that comes over to race has to add weight to race. Why not just make it 925 and 975 i think alot more people would have been satisfied with that.

What we have here is a bunch of us old farts sitting around their computers with nothing better to do than pound their keyboards. I enjoy it and the guys out in the shop think that it's great idea also better in the office than out in the shop. Someday we might hit on a good idea.

This board was designed to do exactly what it is doing, and that is getting people to talk to one another about problems they see in the sport and also what they see that is good in the sport. We aint exactly playing golf where they have a 200 year old set of rules, so what we are doing is we just kind of throw stuff out there and let people read it digest it if it good we build on it if it's junk it kind of dies on the page.

The guys in Il want to get rid of menthanol. Since they are a farming state maybe they should look at ethanol. I know that back when we started racing karts, it was methanol only that might be because the fuel tank sat on the back of the kart next to the exhaust pipe. They figured if you knocked of the fuel tank the explousion would be smaller with menthanol than gasoline and they could always put the fire out by peeing on it Not so with gasoline. So then we move up to upright sprints and low and behold they want to run gasoline only. In go karts a # drill was all that was required to convert from gas to alky.

Converting an electronic injector over is almost as simple.

A lot of people have not learned to do things for themselves. Being an old industrial teacher I think it because they took Industrial arts out of schools and replaced it with can't we all be equal and feel good about ourselves courses where everybody can make an A and move right on up and out into the "not so real world". You guy's talk to the "engine Garu's" and oh yea we can do that going to cost you about $3500.00 and nobody will out run you with my stuff "HELL-OOOH". Welcome to the real world.

Methanol gives you a little more power, it does not have to cost an arm and a leg to change over. If you blow your motor up you can switch it over to your new motor, and you probably will blow it up if you are really racing. Blown motors are expensive but if you want to race you got to pay the price!

I think the big fear with menthanol is the fear of the unknown and a bunch of old wives tales hanging around about cost. I called one of those guys about converting over to methanol "wow". I have been bull*hiting long enough to know when somebody is shooting me a line of bull. So I thanked him for his time and went right about my job of converting over to methanol.

If there is something you want to know about menthanol injection call me at 502-778-6833 8am to 6pm ask for Bill. I will not shoot you a long line of bull.
If you wan't to do it your self I will try get you started in the right direction.