Sorry about that "CHIEF" that won't happen again it's your deal do your thing. What is your reason behind th 6" motor offset rule in the first place or do you have one. Why does the nerf bar have to be inside the tire. Looks like 25 to 30 lbs is right for extra weight for alky.

Come on up and race with us sometime. I don't put a lot of stock in rules I've been DQ'd for 3 lbs overweight and 2" too much nerf bar You have my blessings. If you are dumb enough to put it "in writing" you have to, or should have to live with it. Ask yourself what is the reason for this rule and do we really need it. If the answer is I don't know do away with it.


(the answer to the motor off set is we were trying to keep the sidewinders out.) Do you really need that rule?

Why is this so hard to understand? I'm sorry, but if there is ANY HP gain, there should be weight added, plain and simple. People are asking for proof of where the evidence is that alky has the advantage...a dyno sheet is posted, calls are made, and people still aren't happy. Sounds to me that they just want people to give in and make weight even. You have to realize that won't happen. IF ANYTHING, it will be mandatory for alky and no gas anymore, but, as long as there's gas in this series, there will be a weight penalty (in most organizations).

Driving gas, I couldn't care less about this stupid weight difference rule, but I'm just tired of hearing about it. I know ILSS started all this with the announcement of 1000# vs. 925#, which is a little over the top, but if they came out and said 965# alky vs. 925# gas there would still be people complaining!

I apologize, I'm tired of reading all of this non-sense about making national rules when there's no organization to the thought of it. It's just everyone arguing over (mostly) weight differences. Come to terms at 25# difference and freakin move on. If it doesn't work from there, then change it.

Those of you that think this "national rules" topic is going to be resolved by even 2013 are crazy. In my opinion, at least come up with some basics, have some organizations try different things out, and see what you come up with. Right now everyone's just throwing in their opinions with nothing even being accomplished. Waste of time.

First I question the HP ratings you listed Jimbob. At this point, all we have is that one dyno pull on the R-1. It shows the gas is about the same on HP and the "sweet spots" of the rpm range. So basically, the fuels are equal in this case. Therefore...weights should be the same. Oh.....I could contact some of the places that actually sell alky systems but geee........wonder if they will inflate their numbers to sell their systems. Somebody come up with more data for comparison on STOCK motors.

All this talk is probably a moot point. Seems minds are already made up. Like I said......I am NOT a very good sheeple. Somebody produce some information that will convince me alky has such a big advantage.

Hey.... racing season is over. Doesn't hurt to talk about stuff. Going to be a long winter. Relax. Chill out. Besides.....you don't have to read it if you don't want to.

I want to read it. I said nothing about not wanting to read it. But it should be a conversation that gets somewhere. This has really gotten no where. There's opinions for change and there's those that say nothing's changing.

Well,,,,, Still dont like the 25# weight break for gas but if thats what it takes to have the same weight across the county lets do it!! But using this rationale better give a weight break to older stock 1000cc. After all they are down 6-8 hp if you read the specs. From newer bikes. My point is the difference in HP is 4-6 from alky to gas from year to year is a mute issue.

I saw Bill May log in yesterday reading this post. I am sure Jerry has read this. Don't really think ILSA gives a dam, everyone else is already at 925# so who ever has Bill and Jerry's ear,, bended it and get them involved with this conversation.

BTW can anyone tell me why you would dyno stock motors on C-12, 108 octane gas vs alky???
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This is about like going to the old rules meetings but a lot more fun. I kinda of like sitting in this old office chair and pounding keys, beats the hell out of sitting in a folding chair wondering how much longer.

I do sometimes wonder about these rules. Most of the rules you read today started here in Indiana over 20 years ago. When a bright young man wanted to start a series he would just call Jerry at AMSA and get old Jerry to mail them a copy of his rules they did not have computers back then. Then copy down the rules put their name at the top and they were in business. Electronc injection, 1000cc super motors adjustable shocks, mechanical injection retrofits, and DYNO DOCTORS did not exist back then.

You were and are about as close as we are going to get to a national rule right now. PPOUTLAW wants quick changes because he has a sand@chain thing. Bill May wants to let 3/4 midgets, Kenyon midgets run with us because we have a bunch of them around us. There is a guy up in Mtpelier Indiana that wants to run a series with "FULL" midgets and mini-sprints together. IF he kinda of plays it by ear and does his handicapping right this might and could be the hot set up for the future. We have a bunch of old midgets around here and several minisprints also. The guys out in Il. seem to be doing something right because they do have a real good program.

We need to take what we got make the most out of it and have fun. Stop worring about making this a national thing because it will always be regional. We aint never going to be USAC and we probably don't want to be either.

If any one wonders in off the road I'm sure that after consulting with his racers Bill will let them run with us and would hope it would also hold true with you other guys.

Every time you sit down and make a rule to make thing cheap it always ends up costing more. Look at Washington D.C. Their hearts are in the right place but they keep their heads in the dark stinky place, and we have more regulations than we can afford all under the pretense of making things better for everybody.

Keep the rules simple get rid of the filler bull rules. Keep things fair for everyone don't change the rules whenever the race is over or the wind blows a different direction let the racer know in advance what to expect. Every body needs to either love the race director or every body needs to hate the race director it wont work half and half.

We might do that some day PPOUTLAW but not as long as old Bill May is around.

Mark - I agree, if everyone can agree on at least 25#, then I'd say that's something to try out. I'd say that's a happy medium. When it comes to ILSA, DAD is right, the program has grown a ton and with 20 races at Peoria this year is only getting bigger. The ONLY thing hurting it is the 1000# alky rule.

DAD - I agree with a lot of your statements. We do need to take what we got and make the most out of it. But, we need to all decide on some stable and simple rules to keep it fun. You're right, "National" isn't quite the right term. "Regional" is a better term for most of us.

As I've said before, when this thing blew up because ILSA guys changed it to 1000# alky, people flipped out because the reasoning was to be cheaper and get gas to rule the series. MANY MANY MANY people misunderstood that and thought that they were saying "Oh you can't spend $20k on your setup." That's not what they're trying to do. They're trying to make it affordable for new drivers to enter the series and be competitive based on FUEL. We all know there's much more to the car than fuel, but that will give way to some new drivers that are interested to at least get into the car and feel competitive just off fuel. As it's been said before, pardon me, but you gotta be an idiot to go and spend $30k on these cars to win $250-$500 a night. DAD said have fun, how can that much investment to that much in return be fun? Just my opinion.

A key phrase from DAD was "keep things fair for everyone, don't change the rules whenever the race is over or the wind blows a different direction..."

KEEP THINGS FAIR. This series is suppose to be for the budget racer, and when people are talking about running all alky, that's isn't for the budget racer! It doesn't matter if it's $750, that's not for the budget racer! Especially when this series CAN BE RAN without that extra expense.

DON'T CHANGE THE RULES WHEN THE RACE IS OVER. Promoters can't sit there and change things because someone complains about something at the end of the race/season. When series' are saying they're going to monitor rules through the season, that's the heads up that it can be changed. But still, you'll know when that's going to happen.

Dad have you looked at my runs or the rules for the Florida Non Wing Winternationals....they are 95% MMSA rules we differ a small amount...QUICK CHANGES and 1352cc was added to get midgets and TQ's out of the garage and onto OUR tracks...a guy can pick up a midget roller for a few bucks and add a $2500.00 engine off e-bay, buy a hawk adapter and go racing....getting cars on the track is what it is all about...

As far as the National thing ...the title of this thread is..."National Lightning Sprint Car Rules"....as I have in a few other post a National Series would consist of regional series that came on board and those racer's finishes and points through out the year....IT WOULD NOT BE A TRAVELING SERIES as of now...you would use a % of you regional series points to determine a NATIONAL CHAMPION...if there was going to be any National races it would like 1)Tulsa Shootout(AMSA)...2)Florida Winternationals (SSLS)...3)MMSA big Race...4)WIMS big show....5)MLS big show... 6)Colorado Lightning Sprints... 7) California Lightning Sprints... 8)NLS big race....9) ILSS Memorial race....those would be BONUS points if attended ... As I have previously spoke about this, I am in the process with Outlaw Race Parts in creating this type of series

The big problem I see is safety. Menthanol is by far much safer than gasoline in an open wheel race car. When we pull on the track we are usually the heavy car on the track but we will still run the wheels off of that old thing. Stop worring about weight we haven't in 5 years and still do pretty good.

With speeds aproaching 100 mph at Lburg and Windy hollow we could do some serious damage. When you guys go out and buy a cut down wire harness one of the first things that they take out is the fuel pump controller. They make a oil pres controller for the fuel pump but a lot of guys are not running them. They just hook the pump up with the ignition switch.


***** If You Get Knocked Out and If The Fuel Line Comes Loose You Are Going To Be Squirting Fuel (Gasoline or Methanol) for probably about 20 feet at 45 PSI. THAT DOES PRESENT A PROBLEM . Lets stop worring about national weight or national fuel rules and at least get a national rule about fuel pump control before OSHA comes in and does it for us***********

Papa Outlaw, yes, just as UMP, points come from how you finish each weekend at your own track? Plus those major races throughout the year (of course, scheduled accordingly with no conflicts) for bonus points.

---------- Post added at 1:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 1:36 PM ----------

Oh geez, don't bring the "O" word into the mix.