Chuck,
Yes the correct high density padding on the head surround portion of the seat is important.
As Scott at Leaders Edge mentioned, drivers that have an issue with being bounced back and forth, can modify this slightly as needed. One of the ways that works well, is to add a 1/2" or 1" (depends on your current space available and what feels good each driver) of a lighter density foam, or what we call a comfort foam. This creates a two stage pad. First stage helps reduce the helmet from bouncing side to side by absorbing those lighter hits seen on rougher tracks, but at the same time gives you the second stage high impact foam when needed.

Being able to lay the seats back some would be a plus, but with the way the cars are currently, it is something that can not be done in most cases. It would have other benefits too, in addition to more head clearance.

One of the gains we could see with this is a reduced risk of compression injuries of the spine. As it is now, the spine is perpendicular to the chassis/track. If the car rolls and comes down hard wheels/lower frame rails first, or contacts the wall with the bottom of the car, That sudden force/ or shock load is transmitted directly up the spine. Any angle that can be added to the seat back will help reduce that load ratio. You can compare it the compressive loads on your shocks mounted vertical vs. mounting them at an angle.

Ken

Oh I certainly realize some sort of redesign would be necessary to impliment the slight lay back possition. It's just a suggestion and it should be thoroughly run thru computer both in design and some sort of simulations. Everything from the wheel to the peddals would have to be a little different. Even the chassis some.

Chuck, who just notices INDY and other forms in a more fetal possiion than a truckers possition. I believe even Nascar changed a bit. It may just be the seats.

I get what Daron is saying about a net on top. It works like a snow shoe does. It would be something that I wouldn't mind seeing tested, but getting guys to use it properly would be tough. I personally don't think the enclosed Halo that goes above the drivers head(some call it a drag cage) is a bad idea.

With many of the cages on the cars, even when there is 2" at the head area, there is virtually no room at the front of the cage due to the forward rake.

A major problem you have is that in reality all of the cars almost need to be custom built for each driver as every driver is built differently. Two drivers the same heigth can have different cockpit needs due to the fact one may have a longer trunk or longer legs than the other. Let alone the differences between say Kevin Briscoe and Brady Bacon.

Seat bars, belt bars, cockpit safety cage bars, foot pedals,seats and steerings are for the most part all different from driver to driver.

Laying the seat works for some drivers, but others have to sit more upright.

When my brother drove, he used a neck collar and a shoulder to helmet tether strap to keep his head from being able to "whiplash". While that worked for him, others didn't like it because they felt it restricted them. Now with the Hans, I'm sure many guys don't tigthen them correctly because they don't like feeling restricted. What I tend to find is the younger guys who have run them since they where 8-10 don't have a problem with them like guys who started using them in their 20's. I would have to believe that if they are not adjusted right, then you have a big problem because you don't even have a neck collar to support your head.

As far as bad material, I don't know about that. You can get papers and keep them on file, but without testing it as it comes in, it's a hard call.

One reason the cars are suffering more terminal damage I feel is because they are going so much more faster today than 10 years ago. DRC,Comp. Weld.,Dynamite,Spike(Chalk) all produce cars that are welded by great welders. The welds on the Triple X I have seen are excellent(I'm not wanting to get into a geo-political conversation, It's just what I have seen). It also seems that all of the producers have been working on the cage area over the last 5 years to address problems they see. It just takes time and unfortunately we cannot stop all injuries. It is a constantly moving target.

Here we go and no spelling wont be graded.

1) I think Daron has some good points, But I also think all of us can do better at policing ourselfs.

2) Seats and seat belts, You can walk threw any pit area and see trouble. I would be willing to bet that 70% of seats or belts are not install properly. I Have seen seat spacers made from fence tubing,wood,small plastic spacers. seat belts wraped around the wrong tubes. Mounted to high or to low with the plane of the drivers shoulders. I have seen a crotch strap mounted to a torque tube. (no joke) So tell me was it adjusted properly to keep the belts were they need to be "nope".

3) Chassis, I think most all of the builders out there do there best on the safety side. Is there room for improvement "yes". As far as the quality of the tubing goes. When a builder orders 4130 he thinks he's getting 4130 of the right spec. I know for a fact that John Force racing has speced there owen tubing at a out of pocket cost of more than 750,000 bucks to use in there cars. Time and money dictate this "QC" issue. If the mill saves a few bucks and just checks every 5th or 10th stick of tubing out the door, then its time and money saved. And in this market your going to see alot more of this.

4) Safety gear, If its out there to use then why not?. Is the Hans or the RG3 the best. "no" but it's the best of what is out there now. Helmets, Old saying goes "ten dollar head, ten dollar helmet". Oh and one of my favorites, Short sleeve fire proof underware. 85% of the drivers wear it,(long sleeves are too hot) Were is the fire most likely to come from? I would say the motor compartment. So short sleeve underware a good idea.. Dont think so superman.

5) Here's another one I see all the time. In the push off lane, drivers getting ready to go and gives a light tug on the belts. Or does not really tighten them at all. This goes back to the superman thing I think. "wont happin to me"

I was looking right here on this site and came across a series of picture's from "gold crown". They were of a midget fliping(white midget dont know who), In the series of pictures about the second flip the drivers head is about 2 to 3 inchs out of the top of the cage. Belts installed right? Belts tight? head cleance under the cage right? I know Usac has a "rule" on this. Was it enforced, Did the driver and crew and car owner do everthing right?

I came from racing bikes, I rode pro for over 10yrs and have had more than my fare share of injury's to prove it. I have ridin all of my life and still do to this day. It's in my blood. And as you know when you ride the ball bearing jackass it's only a matter of time till you come off. Safety has alway been something I have looked at and yes I can be blamed for have "superman mentality" in my younger years.

In the bike world right now they have a few things out that are like a Hans or RG3 brace. They are the Leatt brace and Alpinestar has one too. Neither one tethers to the helmet with straps. They are an altenate load path design like the Hans. Is this a direction to go?. Who knows, but there is more stuff out there that I think needs to be looked into. Bottom line we all need to police are selfs better and do all the things we can do now the right way. And if you dont belive that wheeling a 900hp 1200# car at over a buck 30 does not have risk and injury involved. Then you need to get out now and quit lieing to yourself !!!!.

CHUY

A.K.A James Sandberg

317-858-7733

Im kinda suprised that cut off switches aren't used either in conjunction with a arm strap or the car getting inverted. Ive seen numerous flips where the driver bears down. The motor hits 15 grand and takes off on landing or increases the inensity of the accident. I've also seen motors remain running after a driver is unconssious. Usually turning around in donuts due to something being broke but still it increases the time between the accident and getting help.

I know some of these things cost money but if a life is saved??????????/ Also it could save a motor by automatically shutting down when flipping.

I really don't think the wrist bracelet cutoff is a very big expense. It's pretty comon in many forms of motorsports.

I still see cars passing flips long after the red is thrown. I don't get it! What if it was you sitting the extra 15 seconds to get help because other cars are still moving?

Just ideas and I totally agree with a checklist prior to push off, Most do but its important, MAKE TIME FOR IT!

I would think a problem with a wrist shut-off would be that one hand has to be used for tear-offs and you would have to remember that the other hand could not be taken off the steering wheel for something under yellow like adjusting belts and messing with your visor.

People have to remember with material, that the type of rod and the amount of heat used are just as important as the material it's self.

It's a fine line between ragged on the edge to falling over that line and ultimately we can discuss all of the rules and measures, but drivers have to be resposable for themselves. If they are not capable of being responsable for themselves, then maybe they shouldn't be driving. That is young and old alike.

I agree with Chuey; shorts and short sleeve undies are one of my pet peeves as well. I mean c'mon. Really? Too Hot? Go stand in a fire the next time you see one and tell me how hot it is then.

I too have walked the pits, and watched drivers buckle up, and I've seen how belts are installed, and mounted. Makes you wonder, or not wonder what some of these folks are thinking, certainly not having a hard crash. I know, some cars don't always have the same driver, and sometimes changes are made, between the heat, and feature, just for driver points. I had an awful time with my driver, and how he thought the belts were supposed to fit, he kept wanting me to lower them where they passed over his shoulders, or put a pad in the seat, to raise him up. He'd had a "bad" crash, he was all out at Putnamville, on the backstretch, and a guy decided to exit, as he passed him. He t-boned him, went right over, and down, flat on the roll cage. It messed up his neck and back, and that was his concern over the way my belts fit him. He was under the impression, that when he pulled his shoulder harness tight, it should pull him down hard, into the seat. After a lot of explaining him, it finally dawned on him, that was what hurt him before, the lap belt didn't get a chance to do it's job, of holding him "down" in the seat, and the shoulder harness just compressed his back further. He is currently using a Hutchins Device, along with a helmet support/neck collar, and of course the double helmet restraint, and we pull him down tight. Last year, at Gas City, he hooked a soft spot, and went up, then over, 8 times, in fact the lady Chaplain came by later, and ask how he was, we were getting the damage prepared for the semi, and she couldn't believe it, she said it was the hardest crash she'd seen there, since she'd been going. You get lucky sometimes, he didn't hit anything but the dirt, and I'm thankful. Belts are cheap, I've wondered why someone hasn't come up with a rachet, so you can really get em "tucked in", I don't see why it would be anymore likely to unhook, than the present latch and link. Bob

Thanks for the info about the hans tethers i was obvisously misinformed by the person i purchased the device from. i Thought if your chin could touch your chest what was the device actually doing? which i would still like to know if you could elaborate more on this, i am glad a knowledgeable person is posting about this issue because everyone in the pits has a different idea. As well as the floating tether, definately want one of those. Im not clostrafobic but with all this equipment we've got on now i just want to be comfortable again.

What i have found is simpson's new belt system and i absolutely love it it has a set of belts for your shoulders with a set of 2" belts on top of those to attatch the hans. so you get your shoulder belts feeling tight and secure then you tighten your hans under the 2" belt.

I have the problem of the Hans slipping under my standard belts when i pull my head forward. These belts stopped this from happening. The Hans does not move and my shoulders dont feel like im strapped in with a couple 2x4's pressing down on my collar bone. I would reccomend this to everyone who hates the way the hans makes the shoulders feel uncomfortable. It is a little tricky to get out until you get used to the system but once you play with it long enough you find the quickest way out which is every drivers concern with hot brake rotors/oil/fuel spilling all over you after a nasty ride.

One reason i didnt like the hans also is the worry of belts slipping off so butler built seats make the seatbelt holes more narrow which wrinkles the belts and i believe this is the wrong approach so i opened up the holes and ran a sturnum strap to hold my belts together.

The only bad part about that was one night at kokomo after having a front tire bounce off my helmet half loopy i popped the lap belts and nearly hung myself not realizing i was upside down! Luckily i had enough coherance to push up off the dirt then pop the latch, whew wasnt a funny experience at the time though lol

One of the biggest issues i see also is the mounting of the chest belts. with a hans i custom fit all my belt mount tubing to where with a hans on with me in the car it is 1/4" lower than the top of the hans with all my gear on. This lets those belts pull BACK the reason they are designed for. Then i mount another piece of tubing 2 inches below to mount the belts to. To minimize stretch minimize length of the belts right? The worst way i have seen is the belts are mounted 6 inches below the holes in the seat with no bar above that point to support the forward movement of the belts. So not only are you stretching the belts your trying to pull the seat along with your body.

On the subject of a ratcheting lap belt they make those you can get them from Butler i have one but it requires a spud in the frame to be bolted into the tubing. Once again you run into people not wanting to hack, cut, weld their fresh powdercoat.

I ran one and loved it because when im strapping in the car i dont want any distractions everyone has a system, you interupt that system and sometimes things get left unhooked like hans clips, steering wheels(yea i did it), even helmet straps. I ran a whole B-Main at Eldora with no helmet strap on how dumb was that but all it took was someone trying to throw gloves or a steering wheel at me while going through my routine.

You can't make a safety device for common sense there will always be people who are un-educated that really think they are doing the right thing. What needs to be done is somehow USAC needs to have a dedicated person as well as local tracks to look at the way everyone mounts their belts. One warning to change it next week if it isnt fixed then they load their car up and watch or go home PERIOD.

I feel i am fairly well educated on safety equipment i run and how it is supposed to work but within 5 minutes on this forum i have learned something new and i hope that my post will help out others the same. There is no excuse for USAC not having this being done we drive the most dangerous race cars on dirt. Its time for USAC to step up to the plate and make these a priority. I could care less if someone has titanium brakes, more power to them for wasting money i can stall my engine with a standard heavy weight .810 rotor. Focus on what is important!!

At the start of the season let everyone know that by the next season the new rule will be mandatory. Dont just show up with a measuring tool and expect a miracle that everyone will get new cars by the next show.

I know you're not going to get people to show up for a seminar on this subject so it has to be done at the track so have a frame with a seat mounted that is fit perfectly for that driver with a hans or the other device i forget R3? Let people see the way things are supposed to be so when they get back to the shop they can cut notch and weld tubing in thier cars where it is supposed to be. Ive done it myself many times because its so critical.

If youre getting a new car built all i do is say leave the A frame braces out im bringing my seat and gear. mark where they need to go and its done. Then you load the frame up and take it home.

-Daron Clayton

Daron, All,

I'll try to make this brief, but hopefully answer some Questions.

The way the helmet anchors are positioned on the helmet, and the geometry of the neck rotation are what allow you to tilt you head fwd. and touch you chin. The anchor position is designed to be a centerline in a couple directions. If you put your helmet on, and just pull you chin down, you will notice that the anchor position really doesn't move more than an inch or 2 because it is close to that hinge point of the neck and the base of the head. The position of the anchors is also designed to create a centerline that runs along the tethers, through the anchor point and to the area of where the forehead and the front of the helmet meet when at the peak load of a forward impact.

Another reason to not make the tethers to short, is that the 5-6" length gives the head a bit slower deceleration in a crash. Kind of like catching an egg in an egg toss game. You don't catch the egg with firm hands and arms. You let your hands and arms follow the eggs path as you catch it and slow it that way.

I hope the below link works. It shows how the Hans actually stays/grips the belts at time of impact. The tethers then tighten as the head starts to move forward, and the Hans position looks to be moving backwards, but in fact is not. When the tethers grab, they start the control of the forward motion and extension of the neck to slow everything down in that method.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RinuSRqMaM&NR=1


The double belts are a good route to go as well. Everyone who I have talked with that have them, like them. BUT, correct belt mounting is even more critical with those. They are a little bit tougher to get set-up in the car, but once you have it, everyone seems to like them.
The standard 3" belts, as well 2" Hans Belts work fine as well, and if they are working well for a driver, then that is OK.
However, the double belts are an option to look at, not needed or required with the Hans...just a nice option for the reasons you mentioned Daron.
Schroth, Simpson, Impact are some that I know offer these. I haven't checked to see if Crow does now as well, but I'm guessing they might.

Next, if you do choose to use a sternum strap, you really need to be sure that it is low on your chest or close to, or lower than the base of the Hans. As you can see in the video, your body really moves forward on the belts. (And that is a hard plastic dummy that deforms less than a human, and the belts are tighter then any of us ever synch down ourselves). IF the strap is too high on your chest, you can see that the result would not be good to your neck. PLEASE CHECK THIS IF YOU RUN A STURNUM STRAP....PLEASE.

Daron is exactly right on getting your seat and chassis fitted when new. Or if buying a used chassis, make the needed changes to the rear A-Frame area to fit YOU AND YOUR SEAT before you send her out for powder coat.

We will have more tech info on IOW as fall and winter progress.


Ken Joyce
KRJ Race Products
ken@krjraceproducts.com

One more question about mounting points on the helmet, i have 3 helmets sent to me this year with the mounts in different locations what is the optimal spot to put those mounts? I remember one incident i had where after a couple days my head aches wouldnt stop and i felt a knot on each side of my head it took me a couple days to realize these were the spots that the hans mounts were in that helmet so i took my pading out and there were the nut heads that left then knots on my head from the crash. Just wondering if this has happened to anyone else. Could have ben a hard side to side hit deforming the helmet i would suppose? but wouldnt indy car drivers be having harder hits than what we take and have already noticed this? It only happened one time and i ran a different helmet after that incident might have been the location of the mounts like i talked about above? Thx

-Daron Clayton