[TM123]

I just don't understand how it's a evolution to go to something that has already failed. And from what I understand it failed because of cost.

Dad your right mini sprints did go down years ago and have made a come back the biggest reason for that is because of cost. Mini sprints are running lap times close to that of midgets and sometime faster for a fraction of the cost. That has lead guys from midgets and sprint cars that don't have the big bucks to compete at those levels to move to mini's and compete with the budget they do have.

Now that we are talking cost, Dad and Cadpro have Midgets that were converted into minis so it's easy to make the switch. What about the guys that have mini's? Now they would have to get new cars cost, cost, cost.

RickyBobby (if that is your real name) is right you let this in then what can someone run a esslinger and say "well it only has 150 hp"?

Probley the best class of racing for a low buck team is the minisprint, not 1000cc midgets or car engine powered midgets. Leave the class alone. Jmho. Time does march on and the minisprints will evolve with the motorcycle engine. Using a car engine in a motorcycle engine class is time marching backwards, aka, midget.

[latemodel55]

Here is the problem I see. All the newer 1000cc engines are not usable. I was told that most newer engines will not hold up in this app. Do to either output shaft height or the internals of them be to light. If this is the case I see a big problem in the future.

[racer8432955]

If nothing else it seems this would create division and class instability, at least at the local level.
As someone looking to start racing again next year (raced WIMSA mid-late 90’s) I am concerned with this idea from a cost perspective. I recently purchased a car about 80% together, with a little older motor. I decided too nix putting money into the older motor, and found a couple of late model (07 & 08) crashed litre bikes for good price, just not next door (i.e-road trip). A really good price if you consider parting out the good stuff on egay. Now I’m wondering if I should put any more money out there at all, as will my stuff be obsolete with new midget / mini hybrid? It seems to me Wilmot / WIMS has pretty good car counts now. I can’t see this helping (in the short term, at least), as used cars would not be available for low-budget guys. With this economy I would think more people are looking at getting into entry level divisions for a lower cost – not higher (factoring in used cars again).

My biggest questions would be:
•Will parts be readily available to convert existing cars (i.e.- Bailey)? From who? What would the cost of conversion be?
•Has WIMS determined if these will be legal? If not, when will this determination be made? I think that is only fair so people (such as myself) can determine moving fwd or not.

Thanks,
John

[latemodel55]

As it stands right now this engine combo from air filter to oil pan to header will not cost any more than a bike motor.This engine combo will last 3 to 5 times as long as a bike motor. The object of this is to secure a low budget class with a class that has a uncertain future.

[DAD]

Originally Posted by latemodel55 As it stands right now this engine combo from air filter to oil pan to header will not cost any more than a bike motor.This engine combo will last 3 to 5 times as long as a bike motor. The object of this is to secure a low budget class with a class that has a uncertain future.

The 1000cc engines are plenty tuff. And plenty fast. They do keep moving the sprocket up (called stacked transmission) makes it a little harder to get the car to hook up good they tend to unloads the left rear under power, but we can work around that.

Some people are always wanting to play around and try something better, or at least they think it is better. They do not have a base line if they "Play with themselves" so why not let them run, competition will always win out.

1000 cc Midgets are popular because they are fast, and cheap to race. When the $10,000 Orient express BOMBS came around they almost killed the class. Thank God for F-2 Honda's.
Check out these Dwarf cars and mod light cars and even SCCA Formual B and Formula 1000 cars they all want our engines. Wonder what that will do to the price of engines in the mid west?

[Wayne Davis]

Originally Posted by latemodel55 As it stands right now this engine combo from air filter to oil pan to header will not cost any more than a bike motor.This engine combo will last 3 to 5 times as long as a bike motor. The object of this is to secure a low budget class with a class that has a uncertain future.

Todd are you saying I just paid 1200.00 for an 08 GSXR complete wiring/exhaust/throttle bodies this engine will be around that price?...Don't get me wrong, I am for evolution and as long as it does not get to the point of Focus and Eco-tech this will be a good thing..I already allow quick changes just because of the versatility. I don't think adding a driveline is a big deal where you can buy a newer updated midget for the same as a mini....even if you wanted to stay all bike engine it would be like a kenyon car on dirt...I just don't want to have to go out and by a engine for 6 grand and spend another 5 grand on acc. and as it is right now IF you run a STOCK bike engine rule you are only out about 3 grand tops....this is the whole issue $$$$$...some can afford the big $$$$ but most can't and we as promoters need to control the cost of this class as it is very very affordable to get into and to maintain.....If you feel the need to spend more $$$$$ there is PowrI and USAC midgets or if you really want to spend some there's the WoO....

OK DAD>>what do you think?!!!!!!!!!!

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Papa Outlaw Todd are you saying I just paid 1200.00 for an 08 GSXR complete wiring/exhaust/throttle bodies this engine will be around that price?...Don't get me wrong, I am for evolution and as long as it does not get to the point of Focus and Eco-tech this will be a good thing..I already allow quick changes just because of the versatility. I don't think adding a driveline is a big deal where you can buy a newer updated midget for the same as a mini....even if you wanted to stay all bike engine it would be like a kenyon car on dirt...I just don't want to have to go out and by a engine for 6 grand and spend another 5 grand on acc. and as it is right now IF you run a STOCK bike engine rule you are only out about 3 grand tops....this is the whole issue $$$$$...some can afford the big $$$$ but most can't and we as promoters need to control the cost of this class as it is very very affordable to get into and to maintain.....If you feel the need to spend more $$$$$ there is PowrI and USAC midgets or if you really want to spend some there's the WoO.... OK DAD>>what do you think?!!!!!!!!!!

Good to see you back on here raising h-e-double L. We are going to be fighting over the same motor more and more as time goes on.

I race Kawasaki zx10r's because they are fast cheap and nobody else wants to mess with them. They got a bad name. Well after screwing up a few weeks ago I suddenly find out that these things are getting hard to find. It seems people from "China" want to buy up every Jap pocket rocket that wrecks in the US and are not afraid to spend a huge amount of money to do so. We have sent them enough of our money in the past that they can do it too. The only thing that they don't bid on is "China bikes" (wonder why?)

We might want to look at hedging our bets in the future because I don's see any Honda F-2's coming up the pike, and them old "China bikes" won't get out of their own way.

Plan ahead! To be honest I kinda of like the idea of a V-6 Midget, They are still considered scrap and a lot of them are around and ready to race. They ain't much speed equipment for them either.

Honest Dad himself

[Wayne Davis]

I couldn't agree more Dad.....I like all the ideas and as you and I have spoke before on the Mini/Lightning/Midget name...we are a MODIFIED MIDGET....2/3rds .....heck 90% of the chassis are of midget components NOT SPRINT CAR...oh crap you guys do run the crutch on top.....anyway, so if you want to stay with a chain do so...if you want a inline 4 go for it...just understand we as promoters would like to keep the cost down for EVERYONE....as I said for the Fl. winternationals Everyone can run. It is so easy and cheap to slow a big motor (HP) down...AIR RESTRICTION...It is either go or no go when you tech them....KEY WORD TECH!!!.....take the TB or EFI off have a gauge that is the predetermined size and go if it fits and no if it is loose....but still we do not want to price ourselves completely out of business...


Bach to you HONEST DAD!!!!

[DAD]

Originally Posted by Papa Outlaw I couldn't agree more Dad.....I like all the ideas and as you and I have spoke before on the Mini/Lightning/Midget name...we are a MODIFIED MIDGET....2/3rds .....heck 90% of the chassis are of midget components NOT SPRINT CAR...oh crap you guys do run the crutch on top.....anyway, so if you want to stay with a chain do so...if you want a inline 4 go for it...just understand we as promoters would like to keep the cost down for EVERYONE....as I said for the Fl. winternationals Everyone can run. It is so easy and cheap to slow a big motor (HP) down...AIR RESTRICTION...It is either go or no go when you tech them....KEY WORD TECH!!!.....take the TB or EFI off have a gauge that is the predetermined size and go if it fits and no if it is loose....but still we do not want to price ourselves completely out of business... Bach to you HONEST DAD!!!!

Just don't box yourself in. Always leave an out. There are some v/6 motors out there right now that can be had on the cheap with as much power in stock form as an Esslinger . No body wants them, USAC ran them off years ago when they were push rod and Poweri kinda of likes to stick with inline 4 that's fine.

I guess a v/6 cyl would be a 3/4 sprint. Ain't tried that name yet.

Oh yea a few years ago USAC tried that and an old boy by the name of Glen Niebel of Edingerg Indiana whipped their butts but good with that lil 6 cylinder motor. Smoke what's his name was his driver.

Honest Dad himself