[DonMoore10]

I sat in the stands for years and years and had no idea what it took to put a race car on the track, the ******** involved, tricks of the trade etc etc. I gradually eased into midget racing, my first love, as a sponsor. I took the dive in 2002 when I bought a car and got a fast education quickly about all the ins and outs of the world of midget racing.

This thread is one of the hot topics on IOW and previous ones have also been the same. So, number one, by the interest, cutting the costs of midget racing is a hot topic... a BIG BIG TOPIC. So far we have not heard one word from any midget organization about any of this. And, we have not heard one word in years... YEARS.... Y-E-A-R-S!!! I can cite all of you plenty of words about adding costs to the sport. More cubes for the Esslinger and Fontana for starters. Monopoly tire deals that favor only the top teams (the minority) while the majority subsidize the minority teams. Are the midget organizations looking out for the competitors or are they looking out for bucks from various midget parts suppliers? To me, it's very suspect when all of these orgs are totally quiet on a hot topic.... for years... Y-E-A-R-S.. No, none of them have to speak to the subject, it's a free enterprise system, but why not? What are we hiding anyway?

Health care and midget racing have a lot in common. Both have out of control costs. $37,000+ for a new Fontana midget engine that was blessed with more cubes by the United States Auto Club. Fontana says we need to buy this engine to win. Based on what I saw at Granite City this past Fall, the added cubes seem to be paying off for Esslinger and Fontana. Would somebody please tell me how this has improved the sport for both the fan and the competitor?????? $37,000+++!!!! Please do not bring up the Esslinger ST. That engine is not going to be competitive at tracks like Granite City, IMO.

Now, to all the executives of US midget orgs.. and I'm not addressing the clubs like BMARA. They are ruled by a democratic vote and you can see where they are at the present time with their car counts. Something is not working there. The Cleveland Plain Dealer is reporting that the world class Cleveland Clinic is making public all the industry ties to their doctors. Yes.. that's right. They are publicly reporting the business relationships that any of it's 1800 staff doctors and scientists have with drug and device makers. The Clinic is making a complete disclosure of doctors' and researchers ties available on its web site www.clevelandclinic.org. It appears to be the first such step by a major medical center to disclose the industry relationships of individual doctors.

Well.. hurray for the Cleveland Clinic. They are showing their true integrity, class and concern for their clients.

[LEADERS EDGE]

I agree that production motors have changed in the last few years so that is a possibility. I was stating why people had gotten away from them.

My point with the IRS is that they are basically on the path you are speaking of. What people are saying is needed is already offered. The IRS fills that group need. Basically any type of motor with restrictions and a narrow tire and wheel rule. If that is what people want to run, it is there to be run.

All of the motors you mentioned are the basis for what we have today. The testing and tinkering and evolving of technology directly comes from the time spent with those and other motors. They became specialty motors because of the weaknesses they found during the years of racing.

From the late 70's through the early 90's my father built or rebuilt hundreds of VW engines. He built motors for several teams and won a few championships and many races. By the end of the 80's, the best VW cost $10,000. They started out in the 70's as basically a stock style engine, but as they where improved and developed they evolved. The stock case was just not strong enough to endure a full season. As far as 38 races goes, that's great; but none of our customers would allow their motors to go that long and they wanted peak performance at all times. While that didn't mean we had to do complete overhauls, we did have to do valve jobs and replace the rings. While that motor ran 38 races, it wasn't as powerful at #38 as it was at #6.

Knowing what I know about the VW motors we ran in the 80's and what I know about the motors we ran in the late 90's and early 2000's, they where basically on the same maintainence schedule except I felt the Brayton Motors made better power for a longer period of time. We ran our Brayton Motors probably 70 plus races without a major failure except one lifter. We got 12-15 races out of a set of valve springs. We would rebuild them 15-20 races. That said, we weren't chasing the USAC title so we didn't have motors on scheduled turn arounds. We where just running the local dirt stuff that included some of the USAC National Schedule.

The funny part about the VW is that when it was the most popular motor; people thought it ruined the racing because it wasn't American.(Although it was actually completely American built using the VW platform. People wanted to get rid of them and get back to stock block type motors featuring Chevy and Ford. Some clubs only allowed the Chevy II and others only allowed the 126 or 133 VW. Now that we have the "American" Motors, people are telling me how great and cheap it was to run the VW.

I want to do a test in the upcomong year as far as the 8"-10" wheel comparison. Maybe I am wrong, but I want to find out for myself because I really don't think it will have the effect that people think it does. Who knows, maybe the car will actually be faster. Probably not, but I want to find out.

[DonMoore10]

If I did the research here on the internet, I could cite numerous press releases by USAC telling everyone in the world about the testing that they have done with the new generation crown car. And it seems that everytime I read one of those press releases, it stated numerous officals were there to watch and record the data.

We can sit around all day and night and talk about what will work on a midget and what won't. But the answer is in the proof of pudding. Testing!!! So my next question is: (for example) Who tested the Esslinger and Fontana before they were granted extra cubes? Sorry to pick on these engines, but they were granted. What were the results of those tests if they accurred? If there were no tests, then why did they get the extra cubes?

Hoosier has a monopoly with midget tires. If they have a monopoly, then I hope they are conducting tests to give us a better product for less money. Hoosier, please make your test results public to us. Nothing to hide I hope. If you are not testing tires and wheels, then that's a problem if you have a monopoly.

When was the last time any midget org actually did some testing with a midget to see what really works and what doesn't, tires ,engines, wheels, etc etc.

If this isn't happening why not?

So do we just pass rules without testing? Please tell us.

[LEADERS EDGE]

The Esslinger started out at a higher Cubic inch, then got cut to 155 and now it is back to around 161-166. The original inches gave them some advantage, the 155 made them not quite competitive enough for the USAC trail and now the new size has made it very competitive. With some teams it dominates at times, but there where at least 5 different types of motors in the USAC National Series Victory Lane this year.

I honestly don't recall the deal with the Fontana and how that size was determined. If I where Fontana I would tell you that you had to have one to win as well. That doesn't mean you have to get one. I was told that the Fontana that won the ARDC series was the $17,000 spec Rhino motor, but I guess it has been outlawed now as people think that it has an unfair advantage. I was told that it ran all season with only routine mainatinence, but nothing drastic. So here is a motor that was comparably cheap and reliable, but it was outlawed because it won the title.(If that is not how it happened, then correct me. Since I don't race with ARDC and the person I talked to was intimate with the team that won, maybe I am only getting one side.)

We mentoned the corporate engine builders, but the two motors that people wanted to have in 2008 where actually independents. Ford helped some, but they tagged onto what Esslinger had been doing for years. Some arguments could be made that the corporate alignments with Chevy,Toyota, and MoPar actually hurt the teams they where associated with. The Chevy,Toyota, and Hemi-MoPar all had their share of troubles this year.

I do think the Esslinger ST can compete at Granite City and with Powri it can win. The STT is even better for $22,000 complete.

When the Nine cars ran the Pink Ford, people thought that was an advantage and thought they needed them. When the Toyotas didn't win, few people want them even though they too are very expensive. When Wilke's and others ran and won numerous races with the Sesco Mopar; many people thought that was an advantage because they won races. When Don wins with his Sesco, people start thinking that is what they need to win. I've had guys tell me "That motor in Don Moore's car is fast. I like that motor." If a stock block Honda or Chevy comes along and wins, then that is what people will want.

I have no idea what goes into getting an engine cleared for USAC, but it is probably neither as hard or as easy as we may think.

[Beer Goggles]

During the boom in Midget racing after WWII, you still had the "Have's" and "Have Not's".
The answer then was to divide the field into two divisions: Offies and V860 Fords.

Today, why not form a new "B" division for Newbies and low-buck teams to run their own races along with the top dogs, using production based blocks, limit RR wheel width, and possibly limit to one new tire per night ?
You could ressurect many parked midgets and build a used parts market for the front line teams to sell their castoffs.

Am I making any sense ?

[DonMoore10]

Baue, I always enjoy ur spin. The Governor of Illinois needs somebody like you badly right now. You could easily get that alleged crook out of jail in no time.

Back to the Fontana and Esslinger. For the record, and I like facts, not opinion, in 17 stand alone POWRi events, and correct me if I am wrong, the Esslinger/Fontana motors accounted for about 16 wins. One win by the Mopar/Sesco. So, it's not looking good to be buying some other motor. And apparently that Fontana ad is correct according to the facts here that you need to spend $37,000+++++++ to win. Now the traditional Gaerte Chevy was very competitive before all these inches were granted. Ryan Scott came close to winning in my car (Gaerte Chevy at the time) a few years back at the USAC Limaland race, once part of the Buckeye Nationals which has disappeared from the face of the earth, BTW.

So, I am back to my original thinking. Baue, you know this.... the Esslinger/Fontana motors are winning and winning big. More money, more money, more money obsoleting more engines. How did this all happen. What research or testing took place that these motors were given more inches? Travis Minia won at the half mile Route 66 USAC race with the small Esslinger. So... again why more inches???

And ur opinion that the STT would be competitive ( and I noticed you stopped short of saying winning)... well so is the Gaerte Chevy but it's not winning either.

AND, I know of at least one independent engine builder that was flatly turned down when he ask for more inches also. So who's Zooming who?

AND, does any of this matter if nobody is checking midget engines?????? Yeah... if they found an illegal engine, that may be really bad PR.......... these orgs may not want to go there.

[TQ29m]

Sounds to me like, there are a lot of midgets, parked, because of engine costs! Lets do a little history, midgets "used" to be, the only, "affordable" racing, before and after WWII, then along came the TQ's, then NAMARS, then who knows what else, then seems to me like, suddenly, they all wanted to run pavement, then the races got so far away, and at difficult times, and costs of tires, and the hot engine of the month, then it mostly died, except for the Regional, Kenyon, and the Focus. I can remember when everyone had a midget, then suddenly, you had to travel long distances, just to even find a race. What would be wrong, with stepping off the money circle, forget the even $8000.00 motors, look what the VW engine did, then it got expensive, look for an engine, automotive of course, available to everyone, salvage yards full of them, do some research on reliability, and parts availability, and pick out 4 or 5 or 6 or 8, that fit the criteria, and book some races at the local dirt tracks, and get these cars back out where people can see them again, how big a following did the Pinto have, they got scarce in a hurry, but somewhere out there, in a salvage yard, has to be the answer. I got tired of the high cost of SOHC CB750 aftermarket parts, and started looking for something that would fit in our engine specs, and I had to buy about 4 different ones, that looked like good prospects, before I settled on one, and I'm damned glad I did, the new technology, of a stock, out of the chassis motor, is amazing, and what else is amazing, is the fact I don't have to look everywhere for parts, parts are everywhere, and I don't have to pay big dollars for "special" parts, all the stock parts are completly reliable for racing, and I can do it myself, no "spec" engine, that someone else gets paid to put a seal on it. Let the guys that have the where with all, deep pockets, follow the trail to maybe nowhere, find you enough people interested, to get started, and go for it. As a matter of point, I have less in my "out of the chassis" motor, that is very competitive, than I'd have in the "special" rods, for an 836 Honda, and I bought all my used parts off ebay, new rod bolts, from Yamaha, are less than 3 bucks each. We're havin fun, I don't work on the engine at all, it has over 60 nights of racing on it, and is ready to go for another season. My point is this, if you want to race, and your pockets are like mine, and a lot of other peoples, put your thinking cap on, and forget the $30,000.00 engine route, but get them cars out, where folks can see them locally, put them back in the spotlight, where they belong. Looks like it's worth a try to me! Bob

[DonMoore10]

Wonderful ideas there. Bob's thinking out of the box which is rare these days as far as midgets go.

If you want a broken nose, try selling those ideas to a current midget org (almost all are under the covers in bed with the money manufacturers) and see how fast that door hits ur face.

[Larry G.]

Great post. My take is to run midgets where they belong; on nothing larger than 1/4 mile track.

[hairracer44]

I know I'm going to get bashed for this but. I think I saw a shirt that said SHUT UP AND RACE!! So do it. If your not having fun racing don't do it. If you don't like the rules out there or the sanctioning bodies out there to race with step up and grow some ba**s and start you own group. It's easy to sit around and complain about how someone else is running there deal but I bet it not so easy if it you doing it. The current sanctioning bodies are doing what they think is right for there people.

Everybody thinks they know better but no one is willing to put up there buck to start their own sanctioning body. I would love to see someone bring NAMARS or CORA back from the ashes.

I bet if the guys complaining were the ones winning they wouldn't be complaining but I bet someone else would be.

SHUT UP AND RACE!!!!!!