There are so many forces at work here. If we are saying the economy is bad so we have to reduce costs, does that mean when it is good we then have to raise costs again?

The car counts are not great at some shows, but then they are outstanding at some of the most expensive shows to run. How can you tell USAC and Hoosier there is a problem?

As far as making the the racing cheaper to get people back to racing again, I'm not sure that really works. If you change the car,tires, and engine rules, then people who have cars just sitting will not be able to bring them back out because of the costs to convert and/or buy a new car. Especially since they cannot sell their old ones to get the money. Racers have cited costs as the reason to quit racing since the first racer quit racing.

Although costs are usually cited as the reasons people quit racing, usually it's a culmination of things like loss of dispossible income,loss of desire or the natual progression of some peoples lives that when combined with the costs make for a recipe that leads people out of the sport.

In racing, at least the USAC level of racing and up, there really is no passive involvement in terms of car owners and drivers. You have to be commited to do it well. People who have been in the sport as long as the Hoffmans and Wilke's have done it because of their intense desire to compete in the sport of auto-racing and open wheel racing in particular. Unfortunately, there are fewer and fewer long term competitors like these racing anymore. Many reasons besides costs contribute to that, but we also have a different breed of racer today.

My dad worked for Carl Gehlhausen. People would tell Carl:"Look at all of the money you would have if he didn't have race cars" and he would tell them he wouldn't have the desire to get the money if he weren't racing. He loved to race and would do whatever it took to go racing.

All of this said; I do believe that some limitations need to be put in place to help keep the sport going in a positive, forward direction. As I stated before; I believe that tires need to be addressed first because of the amount of on going cost associated with them to stay truely competitive. I don't care if Hoosier is the tire of choice or not and I honestly don't care what compound they run, but knowing the costs to run the cars and the limited purse money available; USAC should make sure that the tires are used as economically feesable as possible to make sure that their true product, the racers and races themselves are healthy.

Me personally, I would think a more prudent choice would be a tire company that had a National/International advertising campaign would be a better choice. A company such as Goodyear,Firestone/Bridgestone,Michilin, or Yokahoma that could not only put up the purse money but weave the sport into their ad campaigns. Provide a place where USAC could go in and do some pre-race marketing with drivers and show cars before an event. A company that doesn't really need racing to make it's money, but a company that can build a decent race tire.

Maybe with today's economy maybe that isn't likely, but then I would bet that it will never be looked at. When your organization relies so heavily on it's manufactures to supply them with money or what have you, then it gets hard to get off the teet.

As racers we get caught up in a faster tire or what have you, but truthfully we just need a solid tire and some sort of over sight. I also feel that since we already have the wheel sizes we do, then lets not screw with the tire widths.

Rob, I understand some of where you come from and I know that the reason you guys are able to race like you do is because you understand racing and are willing to do what it takes to compete. Not just spending money. The little things.

As a banker though, I'm sure you fully grasp more than any of us what the lack of over-sight and fouled up regulations will do if not kept in check. The pavement tire situation is out of control in my opinion and it needs to monitored.

Face it the reacers are their own worst enemy. The Wolverine group was founded to get the low budget guys out of the barn. Lower cost tires to be raced multiple times. Engines restricted for equal competition and longer life. Good racing, fun racing, but only 10 to 12 cars!

You have to look at the reasons there where only 10-12 cars. I have no idea what it was without studying it, but there may be numerous reasons that cannot be overcome in only a two-four year period.

Sometimes guys won't come out because they aren't buying into the program for some reason. That is basically what happened to X2RA. No one could get a grasp on what they where doing. Good guys, but confusing deal and people had already been burnt by NAMARS. To many promises without a track record.

Unfortunately,Sometimes there are just better programs out there that meet peoples needs better at the time.

Here are the twelve midget owners that support the entire USAC midget trail:

Tony Stewart Chevrolet
Kasey Kahne Mopar
Wilke-PAK Speedway (did not enter all the races)
Steve Lewis Toyota
Keith Kunz
Robert Fike
Windom
Billy Boat
Joe Loyet
East/Klatt Ford
Mentgen Fontana
Armstrong

1. I would have to say that 100% of these teams are not pressuring USAC to reduce the costs of midget racing. Just my opinion. There is one exception. Based on my conversations with Tony Stewart, I truely believe that he would be 100% in favor of a cost reduction program for USAC midgets.

2. Only 2 owners from POWRi "crossed the line" and participated in the 47 car count at the USAC Gas City Midget Week event. No owners from BMARA participated. The rest of the field, after considering the USAC regulars, was made up of "sometimes" owners. So the majority of the participants do not support the entire USAC midget trail.

3. ARDC (East Coast) is the only midget organization in the country that has taken a major diversion from USAC rules. They do not allow the new generation Fontana or Esslinger, as far as I know.

4. SMRS (Missouri/Oklahoma) allows unlimited engines and no tire rule. At least two of their participants raced at the USAC/POWRi Gold Crown Nationals.

5. 22 cars participated in the USAC Hut Hundred. 28 cars participated in the POWRi Belle-Clair, IL event the same evening.

6. In 1998 (ten years ago) BMARA had an average car count of 41.2 cars. In 2008 they averaged (not including the co sanctioned events with USAC) 21.2 (cars that took the green flag).

7. BMARA membership votes on their tire rules.

8. There are a large group of midget owners, especially from California and Indiana, who race once a year at the Chili Bowl.

Don: No matter how cheap they made it; many guys, including yourself, would not run all of the races. There are many tracks you won't run at because you don't like their size. Many people for example don't like the miles, but I personally loved racing at the miles. Plus, the miles are very much part of the history of midget racing. If they made it where the car cost $10,000 total and the tires where $50 ea. many guys still wouldn't come back because they have moved on.

No matter what, you cannot please everyone to the point that everyone always participates.

Buckwalter and Redinger came from ARDC and Joe Boyles came from SMRS.

Why would the Powri guys come to Gas City instead of staying and running Belleville,Il? Gas Prices where high, it was a work night and Belleville is a great midget track. I am impressed that around 70 midgets where running in the Midwest on a Wed. night.

I can tell you right now there are more than a couple of people on that list that would like to see costs reduced. Especially the recurring costs of the pavement tires.

Personally, I've never been interested in running a lot of races. I have too many other obligations to take care of. And as a spectator, I love the midgets on the dirt mile and the half mile type horse tracks. Seeing Arnie Knepper win many years ago at Springfield in the Martinez Higman built midget was a real treat. The races at the Ohio State Farigrounds on the half mile in the 1960's were great times in front of over 20,000 people.

The reason I put the various statistics in my post was for a very specific purpose. Statistics tell a story and most of the time you can come to a conclusion or some kind of direction. These statistics tell that a very small group of owners are the core of the USAC community. They are USAC's vehicle in marketing their product. So it's fair to say management is going to look after their needs first. Without visiting that saga again, we saw that happen at Liberty. We can also conclude that the overwelming majority of midget owners in the US have absolutely nothing to do with USAC.... except... that traditionally all the clubs in the US have followed the USAC rules with a little bit of give and take. So almost everybody is tied to the umbilical cord one way or another.

I think it's fair to say that almost all the POWRi and BMARA owners are not crossing over these days and particpating in USAC races. I would like to see these clubs finally cut the cord and get on with their own identity within reason. It's almost like these groups have never grown up. They're afraid to get out of their comfort zone. With BMARA, the statistic of a 50% drop in car count is alarming. At that rate, BMARA is going to be non existent in the near future.

I have to admit that I have been surprised at the BMARA car counts, but with travel costs the last year I can undrtstand. Nine or Ten teams deciding not to make the Sun. night travel is noticiable and when they decide not to travel it is noticable.

I've been following this thread, with a lot of interest, because of my distaste for "spec tires", I feel like, for the most part, it will be self leveling, and the smartest racer, will pick the right tire, and it might be one he's had, hauled it all over hell's half acre, but he remembers how that tire worked, under the situation. I prefer to keep things simple, and to me, requiring everyone to wear the same shoes, is not an "economy run", besides having to ck them, and try somehow to determine if they've had any "treatments", another thing that can slow down the show. I remember the first time we ventured away from our home track, to race go-karts, on the WKA Championship level, Tony was just a pup then, but we went to Barnsville , Ga, Tony & Nelson took the "redeye", and got there Friday before noon, we'd been there since Wed nite, and had practiced with the "hot dogs", and were holding our own. When we started to leave, after practice, Friday eve, all the trash barrels were full of tires, most of them better than what we had to start Sat on. Needless to say, when racin started, we were dead meat, they had "outtired us". That was ashfault, I don't think it's that serious on dirt, most of the racing in Indiana, on dirt, is usually a dry, slick anyway, so maybe a half wore out, medium compound, would be the tire of the night, who knows, doesn't make much difference, if you spec a tire, someone will spend whatever it takes to keep fresh ones on, where if you open it up, the smart guy will come home the winner, and probably have a lighter tire bill. Which brings me to a "quote" I remembered, from Emerson "Dis" Dismore. I was sitting there one day, listening to him "berate" a customer, who was arguing over a couple bucks on a new Honda CB750, the guy finally says, "well, M&E will sell me one at that price", old Dis didn't bat an eye, looked right square at him and said, " your screw's in the water", and went back to talking to me. I guess we can all follow that advice. Bob

I am all for lowering costs for the racer, but unless you lower the cost of the tire you are not going to accomplish anything. Even if you make everyone run hard tires, the top ten teams will still always have stickers on, and you are opening up pandoras box of tire soaking. New tires will always be what new tires are!(faster than old ones)

Been reading and thinking on this, and while I agree with Don that the basic premise that costs are out of control and purses aren't high enough etc., what I find interesting is the subject is the tire costs. Yes, especially on pavement, tire costs are and have been out of control. But the major cost of most racing, is not the tires, it's the motors. I would imagine more car owners could afford the tire bill if the motor bill wasn't so outrageous?

Take Rob's quarter midget comment (I can back him up on this, it's ridiculous)....the tires are about the ONLY thing cheaper on our quarter midget than on our TQ. People are throwing away $50-$60 tires after 25 laps. It's not the $50-$60 I can't afford, it's the $5000 motors in 2 or more different cars (which are about $5000 if bought completely new), and spare motors costing just as much sitting there just in case for a 7 yr old who when he gets out of the car is more interested in their PSP.

The point is, I believe you have a situation where $30,000-$50,000 engines essentially dominate the midget and sprint car ranks, at least on the national level, but yet we're worrying about saving $3000-$5000 a year on tires? If I'm already that far into it $$ wise to be there with the big dogs, another $5000 on tires, isn't going to stop me.