[Aces&Eights]

Originally Posted by Brickyard ...Now, you wouldn't have your Silver Crown cars because frankly they are too dangerous for that place...

That's BS. If they could run roadster-style cars before, they can sure heck run them now. You're obviously a Penske/CART fan and loathe and disdain us dirt racers, Tony George and racecars w/o wings, so why are you here with your "2" posts? You make out like TG torpedoed everything, but there were already issues before he made his move and it was common knowledge. Also racing isn't just about top speed in and of itself, that would be the salt flats. Actual Racing is about beating the other guy, striving to be the quickest, whether that's 60MPH, 120MPH or 200MPH. Usually the higher the terminal speed is the worse the racing is and ironically a lot of the larger world racing sanctions have finally begun to understand this and started limiting downforce capabilities, like defusers in F1 and spoiler height in Nascar. I left out the derisiveness this time, just for you.

Best of luck to Fernando, he's a gifted driver and I have no issue with him competing or even winning the 500 and I'm proud that it means enough still, that he'd bypass Monaco to compete in it.

[flagboy55]

Mike, I was a little harsh, I shouldn't have said your wrong, I should have said I disagree. We each have our own opinion, that's why we have this forum. Hopefully sometime this summer I'll meet you and apologize formally. And to brickyard, I respect his opinion as he's obviously well schooled in indy car racing. But I have to pat ISF on the back. His post is spot on. To me CART just represents big business, not about the best driver's for the biggest race. Mario, AJ, AL and Bobby never drove a rear engine car until they drove one and they seemed to do ok. I understand it's a bigger jump now days but you get my point. If you think that Jeff Gordon, Tony Stewart, and now Kyle Larson, to mention just a an obvious few, couldn't do what, Mears, Franchitti, Dixon, Fittapaldi, or any one else who's had success in the genre could do, then you need to turn in your race fan license

[PJ Wright]

If there was ever a subject more worthy of this than CART vs. IRL I don't know what it would be.

[Stevensville Mike]

Originally Posted by flagboy55 Mike, I was a little harsh....

No hard feelings, flagboy. Never are, really.

I enjoy your posts, by the way.

[ISF]

Whether Tony George or CART decimated top echelon American open wheel racing is positively open to interpretation. Subjectivity rules over such debates until irrefutable evidence presents itself in favor of one or the other and no one expects that to ever happen.

What is absolutely true and not subject to opinion is this. Had CART been the top sanction with all the nuances in place regarding road courses and importation of foreign drivers post WW II up to around 1990 it's very likely we'd never have seen A.J. Foyt, Al Unser Sr., Rick Mears, Bobby Unser, Gordon Johncock, Johnny Rutherford, Roger Ward, Rufus and many, many more ever race and/or win at Indianapolis.

And I will NEVER believe that Steve Kinser and Jack Hewitt would ever have qualified for an Indy 500 without the actions of Tony George. For that I will always be grateful. Maybe they should not have been there, maybe they should have but I am very happy they got the chance. All the rest of the yammering about who torpedoed Indy Car racing in just noise.

[Brickyard]

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights That's BS. If they could run roadster-style cars before, they can sure heck run them now.

Never said they couldn't. What I said is that would be an unsafe formula....furthermore, explain to me how you plan to get those cars up to 235 mph. Also, explain to all of us how you plan to get butts in the seat to watch one of the three most prestigious races in the world after explaining to everyone that you are going to step in the time machine and turn back the clock in technology, safety, and speed. Sounds like riveting stuff......

Originally Posted by Aces&Eights You're obviously a Penske/CART fan and loathe and disdain us dirt racers, Tony George and racecars w/o wings, so why are you here with your "2" posts? You make out like TG torpedoed everything, but there were already issues before he made his move and it was common knowledge. I left out the derisiveness this time, just for you.

Yep, I loathe dirt racing so much and have such a disdain for you dirt racers that I find myself sitting in the stands of Eldora and Lawrenceburg a few times a year. I love being entertained by what I loathe......

Absolutely CART had issues, but it also didn't need to take dropping a nuclear bomb on the thing to fix those issues. Both sides were culpable in the split happening. I think those owners really underestimated the amount of money that Tony was going to pour into it to ensure victory and ownership of the whole thing.

What I really want to know, is how does an owner who doesn't get into this thing until 1968 by running Donohue in a few races and really doesn't get kicking full time until the 70's have enough clout to override and strongarm a sanctioning body and it's owners into a decision to drop dirt from the schedule after 1970. It has always sounded way too good to be true to me. Perhaps your answer might lie in the direction that the collective sought in regards to their product.

In regards to the post on it being hypocritical to not want to stuff money into a dirt car but turn around and stuff it into lower rear engine formulas, well, at this level it's a business. Those owners have this thing called vision. They know the direction things are going and they can see what's coming. In a series that didn't run more than 5 dirt races from 1965 onward and got rid of them completely after 1970 why would you be socking your money into a dirt car when you can put into a lower level formula car and not only prepare future drivers for the top level but sports cars as well?

That white paper I speak of? Gurney and those guys didn't want to destroy Indy, they've said as much in interviews and it's right there in the paper itself. What they wanted was to take something that had huge potential and was being neglected by the current group and build it.

Yeah, you got Hewitt, Kinser, etc in there after 1996. My question to you is, where are they now? Why is that? Well, your answer lies in the result of that split that you so desired. In 1995 there were 45 drivers who attempted to get into the field. Two chassis and 6 engine options. Now you have one chassis and two engine manufactures who are limited on what they can field.

For the life of me I will never understand why anyone would think what happened as a good thing nor will I ever understand why anyone would want to take one of the oldest and most prestigious automobile races in the world and water it down just so they can say they got to see one of their local heroes in the race....someone who more than likely isn't even going to be a blip on the radar screen of the world.

I have absolutely nothing against Buddy Lazier, and there were some talented people in that 1996 field, but to say that was the same as going out and beating a field that included Al Unser, Jr., Jacques Villeneuve, Bobby Rahal, Jimmy Vassar, Michael Andretti, Emerson Fittipaldi, Nigel Mansell, Mario Andretti, and Paul Tracy...well I know who I would want to prove myself against and it wouldn't be the wattered down version. It essentially went from major league to triple AAA overnight, but hey, you got your heroes there by God.

[chrismattlin]

Originally Posted by darnall I would love to see the rules tweaked for the 500..or every oval, to allow any IRL car from the last 3-4 rule packages to run with any naturally aspirated pushrod v-8 or DOHC 166ci turbo 4cylinder. Every time a new spec car comes out 40-60 chassis become obsolete and only good for showcar purposes....and a couple years later you actually see classified ads on racingjunk for turnkey or roller indycars in the 40-100K range. Surely Abreu Vineyards could hustle up enough help to buy a dallara showcar from some team for the same price one of their new sprintcar motors costs. Surely TRD could quickly come up with a different cam and the proper turbo to convert a couple of Kunz chilibowl winning motors to a suitable 500 package. Or the Hoffman team could find somebody willing to grab a roller and combine it with a motor out of the 69 sprintcar rotation. I have no doubt there are a few businessmen in Indiana, IL, MO or CA that would be more than willing to drop 5 figures on a car to get to see Ballou, T-Mez, Shurenburg or DD try to work their way up from the 10th row at Indy. I would never expect any kind of car grandfathering rule package to allow the old stuff to be equal to the current car and capable of winning...but I am absolutely sure there are 4-10 of our guys who could put a Don Ott 410 in somebody's old showcar and make the show ahead of 4-10 of the ride buyers nobodies ever heard of in a current teams 4th car. Also pretty sure they have enough savvy and racecraft to finish ahead of plenty other ride buyers that do qualify.

You do realize that it's not even possible to put a midget or sprint car engine into an IndyCar, right? An IndyCar engine is, to put it simply, a part of the chassis itself; a "stressed member" technically. You have the monocoque (where the driver sits), then the engine is mounted to the monocoque (more or less directly behind the driver), and then the "rear assembly" including the bell housing, gearbox, and suspension is mounted to the back of the engine. How long would a 410 small block Chevy take that kind of stress? Not long at all.

Please, never suggest using late-model IndyCars- those things are death traps compared to what competes today. I like to see my favorite drivers go home to their families after the race; and to compete another day.

If you wanna see our favorite USAC stars back at the Speedway, get them into an Indy Lites car. That's what Bryan Clauson did, and did it the correct way, hence, he made it to the 500. Take that "40-100k" and buy a ride for the Freedom 100.

[ISF]

Originally Posted by Brickyard That white paper I speak of? Gurney and those guys didn't want to destroy Indy, they've said as much in interviews and it's right there in the paper itself. What they wanted was to take something that had huge potential and was being neglected by the current group and build it.

Huge potential? More speculation and conjecture. By 1995 NASCAR had already delivered multiple groin grabbers to Indy Car Racing and it would be nearly a full decade before NASCAR's momentum showed any sign of slowing. I will not ever believe CART was going to go head to head with NASCAR and come out on top, or even be competitive in regards to spectators and TV ratings. The handwriting was on the wall before the split and Dan Gurney and his white paper weren't going to stop the spiral of decline and. Oval track racing featuring home grown drivers was always destined to whoop up on European and South American road course racing for mainstream fans. Now, hows that for speculation and conjecture?

Originally Posted by Brickyard Yeah, you got Hewitt, Kinser, etc in there after 1996. My question to you is, where are they now?

Well, if I'm doing the math correctly Jack Hewitt will be 66 years old in July and Steve Kinser will be 63 in June. Where are they now? Well one thing is for sure, they won't be jumping in an Indy Car! LOL!!

How low Indy Car racing would have gone on the racing totem pole had CART stayed in control is anyone's guess. Probably not as low as it did, but with the exploding popularity of NASCAR and the CART schedule weighted 2 to 1 in favor of street and road courses over ovals at the time of the split things weren't looking all that rosy no matter what happened and who was in charge.

[Brickyard]

Originally Posted by ISF Huge potential? More speculation and conjecture. By 1995 NASCAR had already delivered multiple groin grabbers to Indy Car Racing and it would be nearly a full decade before NASCAR's momentum showed any sign of slowing. I will not ever believe CART was going to go head to head with NASCAR and come out on top, or even be competitive in regards to spectators and TV ratings. The handwriting was on the wall before the split and Dan Gurney and his white paper weren't going to stop the spiral of decline and. Oval track racing featuring home grown drivers was always destined to whoop up on European and South American road course racing for mainstream fans. Now, hows that for speculation and conjecture?

Originally Posted by ISF How low Indy Car racing would have gone on the racing totem pole had CART stayed in control is anyone's guess. Probably not as low as it did, but with the exploding popularity of NASCAR and the CART schedule weighted 2 to 1 in favor of street and road courses over ovals at the time of the split things weren't looking all that rosy no matter what happened and who was in charge.

You do realize that the white paper was written in 1978....right? A full 8 years after USAC, I'll say it again, USAC took your beloved dirt off the schedule. It was start of the formation of CART. Here, I'll help you out....you might want to read it....http://allamericanracers.com/formati...rt-dan-gurney/

Do you know who sanctioned IndyCar racing up until 1955? Do know why USAC was created? Are you aware that street and road racing is not a new phenomena in IndyCar racing? In fact from 1905 to 1941 over 100 of them were ran. Do you know the full title of the Indianapolis 500? I'll give you a hint, it ain't the 500-Mile Home Grown Boy Whoopin' Up on European Nancy Boys Sweepstakes.

Originally Posted by ISF Well, if I'm doing the math correctly Jack Hewitt will be 66 years old in July and Steve Kinser will be 63 in June. Where are they now? Well one thing is for sure, they won't be jumping in an Indy Car! LOL!!

I know where they are, I watched them both race a couple of years ago. I'm very well aware of their age. My question was toward those types drivers. So tell us, where are they? Tony was supposed to save them.....one individual here just lined out for us how one of them got himself there....why aren't the rest of them doing what it takes to get there? I thought this was what 1995 was all about....them.

Speaking of groin grabbers....you might want to forward this video to 58 seconds an listen. It along with a lot other things that I and others have come across have brought some forth some light on a few things......I seem to remember the destruction was on because the "evil CART owners didn't want nothing to do with little Jeffy boy."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNbU4vIYn1E

I suggest you read this as well: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/j...n-jeff-gordon/

[Aces&Eights]

First I'd like to wish everyone a Happy Easter and in honor of our risen Savior Jesus Christ I'm going to make every effort to be civil and respectful in my responses.

Originally Posted by Brickyard Never said they couldn't. What I said is that would be an unsafe formula....furthermore, explain to me how you plan to get those cars up to 235 mph. Also, explain to all of us how you plan to get butts in the seat to watch one of the three most prestigious races in the world after explaining to everyone that you are going to step in the time machine and turn back the clock in technology, safety, and speed. Sounds like riveting stuff......

@ Mr Brickyard,
One thing I think that has to be acknowledged is there is a difference of POV between fans and racers, we just see things differently. Having said that I'm going to concede that you and I will most likely never agree and that this will be my last response to you in this thread. I am a racer, I've also been a crewman and I've also worked in the motorsports industry building shocks for the entire spectrum of motorsport, from oval to road and drag racing, to handicap downhill skiers, to snow mobiles and commuter trains. I've dedicated my life's work to being "IN" motorsports one way or another. I've been involved in racing going back to 1986 when I was 16 and I've worked on several different types of cars, but not one of those cars had a speedometer in it... I've never seen anyone declared the winner for having turned the highest top speed and the reason is, actual racing isn't about achieving the highest speed.

My guess is that you are a fan of "The Indy 500", that is your main thing, your holy grail. You obviously are well versed in its history or at least know how to use google and have lots of free time. Whichever, it doesn't matter, but you being a fan have your own ideas about what constitutes a race, specifically the Indy 500 and you have your own opinions about what led to its decline in stature and/or relevance. I do find it humorous that you believe the American racers should have changed how and what they race so as to be better suited for racing in the Indycar ranks. The Indianapolis Motorspeedway is an oval track, the majority of tracks in America are ovals and the highest percentage of those, are dirt. Racing on a dirt oval track is about as American as it gets, road racing has never been a big draw in the US, it's just not what we like. We play our own games, we drive on the right side of the road and we like V8 engines. American racers are doing exactly what we've always done and frankly what we are good at. I know you like CART and Penske and going 235MPH and that you believe TG is the devil and that he brought the roof down on "Your" race. While I don't disagree that things didn't go to plan, I do think the idea of returning the focus of IndyCar racing back to ovals was the right thing to do. There didn't have to be a split, Penske and the other owners who left could have stayed and worked things out, but the "Captain" chose to leave and took his friends with him.

Racing is NOT about who can set the highest top speed, not even in drag racing. Top Speeds are something they do at The Bonneville Salt Flats. Most fans, especially today, don't care about peak velocity or technology, in truth the higher the speeds the worse the racing. You scoffed at my suggestion of using something like a Gold/Silver Crown car, but I actually love open wheel racing, American style. It doesn't have to be a roadster, but I would like to see any and all wings phased out.