"changes need to be made so that working people like you and me can afford to support a household an still go race." ... I do not agree!

I know this is getting off topic (sorry Don), but another thing I am getting tired of is people acting like (National) midget racing should be at the point where everybody should be able to afford to race if they want to. And that cost is killing the sport ... this argument continues to be proven wrong.

This argument has been going on for years and years. I can remember when everybody said Steve Lewis is killing the sport and midget racing was done and the cost is out of control and the sport will die of quickly.

Well, all these years later and midget racing is still going strong.

The Chili Bowl had a record car count, that new Cowtown race had over 40 cars (I think) and the USAC western swing had car counts in the mid to high 30's for each event. All of this in a down economy.

The cost of racing is 100% controlled by demand. If people stop buying, business would have no choice but to lower their prices. But, people are buying and plenty of cars are on the track.

If cost is an issue, run a Focus or some other division that requires a smaller budget. National Midgets are the top tier, and like other forms of racing, not everybody can afford to run the top tier ... be it USAC, World of Outlaws or NASCAR.

Joe Shockley (Sorry I haven't signed before, I always think that my screen name says who I am)

[Tony Barhorst]

Eric,

Many on this board will remember when Don Moore and I were bitter enemies. I think the moderators of this board know that from our past exhanges. It just goes to show how your enemy today can be a friend tomorrow...thats my policy...life is too short to carry grudges forever. That being said...Don has a point....do I agree with him totally on all subjects?...No...Just like he doesn't agree with all of my event details all the time.

I always appreciate your posts and find you very funny....I have taken your zinger in good stride...However...I hesitate to get drawn into this discussion...But in fairness to Union County Speedway..and the Midget Week event I promoted last year...

Just for the record...here are the results from that event. I won't point out which driver said it...but one name driver said of the track " We have raced on far worse tracks"

Notice that Steve Buckwalter won the event...I think a relative of his is the President of ARDC....Now if it was as bad as some say...WHY WOULD HE STAY?

Kevin Olson wrote in Sprint Car and Midget " I saw one of the TOP TEN MIDGET RACES OF ALL TIME at Liberty between Rich Vogler and Sleepy Tripp"

It was that potential that led me to Union County...Was it a mistake...Of course....Did we race...YES....Was it safe...YES. Did we have a good time?....YES

The midget portion of the program was originally scheduled as the second round of of USAC Indiana Midget Week, but safety concerns with the race track by only a few teams prompted the club to not sanction the event. Many teams opted to leave the race track without turning a lap.

Race promoter Tony Barhorst proceeded with the racing, paying the midget drivers the same prize money as if it were a USAC points paying event of Indiana Midget Week. Fourteen midgets remained in the pits to compete and 14 started the feature.
Results:
Sprints
First heat: 1. Jeff Bland Jr., 2. Mike Hess, 3. Blake Fitzpatrick, 4. Kent Christian, 5. Matt Westfall, 6. Cameran McGahan, 7. Travis Hery.
Second heat: 1. Sammy Imel, 2. Casey Shuman, 3. Joss Moffatt, 4. Brandon Whitted, 5. Tony Main, 6. Caleb Armstrong, 7. Jim Gardner.
Feature: 1. Christian, 2. Hess. 3. Bland, 4. Shuman, 5. Armstrong, 6. Westfall, 7. Whitted, 8. Gardner, 9. Main, 10. Fitzpatrick, 11. Imel, 12. Moffatt, 13. McGahan.
Midgets
First heat: 1. Robert Ballou, 2. Steve Buckwalter, 3. Dakoda Armstrong, 4. Casey Shuman. Did not start; Matt Westfall, Ryan Criswell, Levi Jones.
Second heat: 1. Thomas Meseraull, 2. Kellen Conover, 3. Mike Hess, 4. Rex Norris III, 5. Kent Schmidt, 6. Kent Christian, 7. James Sweeney.
Feature: 1. Buckwalter, 2. Hess, 3. Ballou, 4. Westfall, 5. Christian, 6. Armstrong, 7. Schmidt, 8. Norris, 9. Sweeny, 10. Dustin Morgan, 11. Shuman, 12. Meseraull, 13. Conover.

Travis Hery flipped during the first sprint heat. Kellen Conover flipped during the midget feature.

I only post this information to give a TRUE history of what happened at Liberty.

Here is a photo link....Bob Jenkins stayed the entire night and had a good time with family.

http://unioncountyspeedway.com/08-07-08.html

[DonMoore10]

The information that I've laid out in this thread is fact and I've given my reaction to this particular org's (they're all alike) request for $XXX.XX. I don't know about the readers on this board, but I don't sit down everyday and write checks for $XXX.XX for reasons that have no benefits.

Fact: It's a deep, dark secret about what's going on behind the scenes in terms of sponsorship money, kickbacks, perks, etc. etc.

Try doing a search on the internet regarding what these midget orgs are rewarding for:

Championship Points
Contingency Rewards if requirements are met
Secondary Insurance
Any monetary rewards

Good luck finding anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

[Racer12]

Originally Posted by JShock66 "changes need to be made so that working people like you and me can afford to support a household an still go race." ... I do not agree! I know this is getting off topic (sorry Don), but another thing I am getting tired of is people acting like (National) midget racing should be at the point where everybody should be able to afford to race if they want to. And that cost is killing the sport ... this argument continues to be proven wrong. This argument has been going on for years and years. I can remember when everybody said Steve Lewis is killing the sport and midget racing was done and the cost is out of control and the sport will die of quickly. Well, all these years later and midget racing is still going strong. The Chili Bowl had a record car count, that new Cowtown race had over 40 cars (I think) and the USAC western swing had car counts in the mid to high 30's for each event. All of this in a down economy. The cost of racing is 100% controlled by demand. If people stop buying, business would have no choice but to lower their prices. But, people are buying and plenty of cars are on the track. If cost is an issue, run a Focus or some other division that requires a smaller budget. National Midgets are the top tier, and like other forms of racing, not everybody can afford to run the top tier ... be it USAC, World of Outlaws or NASCAR. Joe Shockley (Sorry I haven't signed before, I always think that my screen name says who I am)

If you would have read my post you would have seen that I clearly stated that Midget racing is not a national sport. Just putting national behind the name doesn't mean it is. I do not know how much you know of the history of our sport but Midget racing is supposed to be a stepping stone to Sprint cars. You start with smaller cars on smaller tracks and then move on to bigger ones. Don't you think that if more people could afford to race that it would make it better. More racers=more competition=better racing pretty simple. Have you ever looked into how much it costs to go racing a Focus midget or any kind of race car? Midgets are supposed to carry less speed than Sprints and be cheaper to purchase and operate. I know there are guys who have $20,000 to $30,000 invested in a mod. Mini sprints cost just as much as a sprint car damn near. Go carts, $4,000-$5,000 investment to risk your neck with no cage or belts and race with beginers. The best race driver EVER could be out there right now but we might never know of him/her because they did not have a silver spoon in their mouth. A very real possibility.

Bob Shutt

[DonMoore10]

One of the posts in this thread discussed national vs. regional and cited the outstanding car counts displayed in Texas, Arizona, Nevada and California in the recent midget swing out west. The president of USAC in a mag interview has stated that he has no intention of reducing the costs of midget racing.

I did some research and it appears that there are 12 actual national midget teams that are currently supporting the USAC series. There may be one or two more or less. Four of those teams fielded two cars. So a total of 15 cars.

So by looking at the statistics, there are 12 teams that can afford to travel around the country, and have at least two midgets, one dirt and one pavement and race for $2500 to win.

There are probably at least 600 midgets sitting somewhere in the just the midwest area and probably at least 3000 midgets sitting somewhere in the United States.

So for the national scene, it appears that out of my estimate of 3000 midgets, only 12 can afford to race all over the country and chase the national midget title.

I, in a million years, could not and would not, spend the money to chase the national title, so I'll never be one of the elite 12 that you see appearing all over the country.

Here is the problem and it's not with the United States Auto Club. The problem is with all the midget orgs around the country, minus a few, that remain tied to the waist of USAC and their rule book and their deals with manufacturers and the purple tire company. It's a monkey see, monkey do, type situation. Whatever USAC decides to do, they do with a few exceptions like ARDC with engines.

Why are they like puppy dogs following their mother? Well, it reminds me of seeing tons of kids in northern Ohio walking around with LeBron James jerseys on their body. They want to be like their big brother, their hero, the big box.

Is there much interplay with all the rest of these regional midgets? Well... approximately 585 teams can't afford to race all over the country. I don't know, but I don't see very many teams (maybe 1 or 2) that venture out of Indiana and run with either Badger or Powri.

So what do we have to chose from? Well...... since these midwest orgs choose to follow the big box, we have regional racing following the big box rules and all the high priced equipment,tires etc that comes with it.

so... don't expect midget racing to change anytime soon until the regional midget orgs decide that they aren't going to be follower anymore. Otherwise, get your wallet out and be prepared to pay just like the 12 National teams do.

The tire deals are killing midget racing, people. Only when the midget community realizes this will midget racing move forward. Why are we paying $140-180 for the purple tires when American Racer tires that last many races can be purchased for around $80? Would you fans in the stands really know the difference if the midgets races with purple tires or American Racers? If not, then why are we forced to buy the expensive tires like the big brothers do?

Now I'm waiting patiently to see how many cars show up at Terre Haute in September.

[are39]

As for EVERYONE being able to race, no, no and NO! I’m getting sick of all the entitlement mentality in America. If you want to race, then work hard and find something you can afford to race. And yes, you will have to make sacrifices if racing means that much to you. I, for one, am NOT from a wealthy family, but racing has been in my blood since my dad raced when he was younger. I went to school, got a degree, a good job, purchased my first kart, and have been racing ever since. Currently, I’m the owner and driver of a midget and sprint-car, much like Don, with no outside help. Do I drive the nicest street-car? Do I the latest big-screen HG TV? Do I have the biggest, nicest house? A big fat NO to all of those questions, but I’m still able to eat everyday and live within my budget.

Back to the original topic, to me orgs./clubs are a very crude union. True, the membership fees/dues do go towards the insurance provided by the org. But, I think some portion of that goes toward the end of year 'point fund' as well. However, this is hardly ever clearly spelled out, as Don stated. Clubs also provide an opportunity to try your hand at other tracks as well. Yes, the idea of the club is to gain credibility and exposure for everyone to bring in sponsors and what-not, but you need to have a consistent group of cars to get that established. And as someone previously stated, midgets are the ‘stepping stone’ to bigger cars so that group is hard to keep. I rather enjoy Mr. Barhorst approach to things, being a promoter before an ‘organizer.’ Much like the local tracks, there is no membership fee, just your entry fee, pit passes, and go racing. He publishes the purse and rules well in advance, so everyone knows what they’re racing for. Speaking of rules, I think that is one thing that needs addressed in all of racing. There are sooooo many rules now to ‘control’ the cost of racing that in the end, make things more expensive. I think we need safety rules/standards, some overall measurements for the class, and that’s it! Run whatever tire you want, whatever motor, and may the best driver/most innovative person win. Haha….I guess Don already touched on that while I was typing this though!

Chad Atkinson

Don - The numbers you gave could also be said about the World Of Outlaws, etc. ... how many sprint cars ARE NOT at an average WoO event ... a heck of a lot more than midgets.

And, as far as having 12 teams (15 cars) race for the USAC title, that is also normal for group that runs all over the country. The Outlaws averaged 12 or less full-time teams for years in the past and still had 30+ at almost every race.

As far as "Following Big Brother", that also is used in almost every other form of racing to allow racers to run with other groups or in other parts of the country without having to SPEND MONEY changing the cars to different specs. The fact that it is easy for someone to run wherever they want, is a big selling point for getting a midget. I think it is cool that a guy can run almost anywhere across the country and not have to worry much about his car being legal.

You need to base your rules on something, and with USAC being recognized by most as the premier midget organization ... most base their rules after them. It's just smart business.

Go to a freaking MEETING and get the answers you need, I'm sure it is not top secret. Nobody is required to put all that information on the internet. Thus, giving people one more thing to complain about.

You are pretty much answering your own question by stating that you do not run full time or shoot for the top 10 in points, of course you see little value in joining this organization.

Bob - you said "The best race driver EVER could be out there right now but we might never know of him/her because they did not have a silver spoon in their mouth. A very real possibility." ... this could be said about almost everything in life.

Once again, this is a feeling of "Entitlement" in that you feel that everybody who wants to race a midget should be given a fair chance. Well, I want to drive in NASCAR, should I be given a ride just because I WANT one?

Joe Shockley

[DonMoore10]

There are very few midgets that are "crossing the border" these days. Let's not make expensive rules for a few teams.

[pgray]

( follow this link to the IRS guideline / definition / ruling )

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/...172833,00.html

--------------------------------------------------------
The link above is offered to make a point. Are you and your activity of choice a business or are you simply engaging in a hobby ?

If you own one midget and a trailer , operate out of your home garage and fund this activity personally ( no sponsor income ) , you probably have a nice hobby that you enjoy very much. Even tho this activity may produce some income , you probably have no expectation of showing a profit.

This guy , as described above , is probably Don Moore and the vast majority of Midget owners today. As Don stated , there are only 12 or 15 National teams.

If you own a $300,000. transporter , lease 25,000 square feet of commercial space , own an inventory of 8 Midgets and employ 12 people who are paid real wages and receive real benefits and having those costs offset by sponsor income , you are definitely a business.

This guy , as described above , are people like Steve Lewis and there's nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps one who conducts an activity that is seen as "hobby" should not expect a voice powerful enough to orchestrate sweeping change. It would seem those business owners are really calling the shots , whether that's good or bad. It just might be their sand box that we're trying to play in.

Don , while we are concerned about the high costs of Midget racing , is it realistic for " hobbyists " to expect to have their activity subsidized by free pit-passes , memberships and tire discounts ? Just a thought ...




:idea:


:action-smiley-049:

I stated earlier that Cowtown had 40+ cars ... how many of those guys "Crossed the Border" from other organizations? A good number of them.

You said yourself that the western races only had 15 full time cars ... in addition to the other USAC and USAC Western regulars ... those races had regulars from POWRi, Badger, AMRA, SSMA, SMRS, BCRA and RMMRA who ran at least one of the races.

These races never would have been that big if the sanctioning groups had their own unique set of rules.