Yes and look who pulled their midgets off the track when the sponsorship went away....... TSR and to a point, KKR.

I'm not criticizing you, just trying to figure this out in my head. I haven't been a regular in the pits since the late 80's in California, so I'm a little fuzzy on this. Here's the thing that comes to my mind. If a team buys pit passes and some of the money is considered an "entry fee", how does that fly when fans buy the passes? What is the difference, since the price is the same? If it was "itemized", and some of it was considered an entry fee, then the fans who aren't part of a team shouldn't have to pay the part of the pit pass that is an entry fee. At the same time, if a driver has multiple cars, then additional entry fees for each car shouldn't be the same price as additional pit passes. What is the present rule for a trailer that brings a back up car? Do they pay for each car?

The double pit pass deal involves DRIVERS/OWNERS and not pit crew. The entry blank of a promotion did not specify if both the driver and owner would pay the double fee. For sure, though, one of them would have to. That particular promotion had no entry fee listed for the open competition sprints but midgets are being charged $100-150 entry fee for up to three night racing. Pit passes are listed as $30-35, depending on the night. For that particular promotion, the double pit pass fee has been waived after a debate with a lot of negative reaction on this web site.

The bottom line is that in this sport where there is virtually no outside revenue from meaningful sponsorship or television, the purse and a fair profit for the promoter has to come out of a combination of the front gate, back gate and concessions.

A promoter can make a fair estimate of how many people and cars are going to attend a particular event. They then set a price for both the front and back gate based upon the estimated number of paying customers on both sides in order to make it work.

I've seen promoters let fans in for free for pretty big shows and hope they can make it on a huge grandstand concession and pit gate, but quite honestly that's a roll of the dice most promoters aren't going to take.

If the promoter sets the pit pass too high and grandstand too low, then the racers will gripe about the back gate supporting the show. Set the grandstand too high and pit gate too low and the grandstand fans will complain about too high of a ticket price. Try to get it out of a $4.00 hot dog and everyone will be griping. Lower the purse to where the admission prices will very reasonable on both the front and back side and owners and drivers will say the event isn't paying enough to be worth their time.

The only solution I can see that is going to change the equilibrium is for the owners/drivers to understand that it's their responsibility to try to put butts in the seats too. At the end of the day there are two groups of people leaving the track with money: The promoter and the racers. The fans don't get paid for having a good night at the track.

What does this mean? It means that the imaginary line between the grandstands and pits has to be removed. The drivers have to become a bigger part of the "show". The grandstand fans have to get to know the drivers and become engrossed in the drama of the night and season. I'm not blaming owners and drivers here, because promoters usually don't ask for help from them. But promoters and drivers have to realize that the only way both of them are going to leave at the end of the night with more money than they do now is to put butts in the grandstand seats.

How many tracks make any real effort at making sure fans get to know the drivers? Except for hard core fans, can most fans tell you whether a particular driver has blonde hair or dark? An approximate age? About their family? Who their rivals are? Whether they are still peeved off about what happened the week before?

The drivers are the show. Yet except for what happens on the track, our sport doesn't use the drivers much to help build or increase a fan base. That has to change.

A promoter can run a special and let the local Rotary club in free for a night, but without that new fan becoming hooked on the stories and faces and drama of the track, he isn't coming back as a paying customer next week.

Again... it's not the driver's fault. I own several cars and have never asked my drivers to do anything to significantly help the "show" other than to go out and race and sign an autograph when asked.. Perhaps I need to re-think that a little.

Who has done the "pay for as many pit passes as classes you are running"? I've never seen this done?

Well Versed by "bloard".........Thank You!

Please take this for what's it worth and I cannot guarantee it, but I heard recently that a sprint car promotion in Indiana during the "big big week" reels in a $50-75,000 profit for the promoter. If that kind of money is being taken then why are the drivers/owners paying to entertain? Remember, I'm not advocating that the promoter shouldn't sell pit passes to individuals other than drivers/owners. But as BLoard pointed out, the drivers/cars are the THE entertainment.

Now, for example, and I don't mean to offend, but, announcers are apparently getting around a minimum of $150 per night and I doubt that they buy a pit pass. Are good announcers part of the show.. yes they are. But is an announcers services worth more than, as Bloard pointed out, the main attraction for the evening, drivers/cars. Obviously, announcers have drawn the lined of what they command and they are getting it apparently. On the other hand, the biggest majority of the stars of the evening do not leave or clear $150 for the evening.

EMT's are paid around $32 an hour for their services. Do we come to the track to see the EMT's? I don't think so. Here again they have a bottom line for what they will accept for showing up.

I understand your point Don, but think you are oversimplifying by talking about announcers and EMT's. There's a price for recreation and entertainment that I'm willing to pay as an owner in order to be able to race my car. That's my hobby. It's not a business or occupation. And, as most hobbies, I don't do it expecting that I'm going to get paid for it. I just hope that at the end of the night I'm as close to paying the bills as I can be. Any profit from a night is gravy.

The EMT may or may not be a race fan and is there doing their occupation. Their hobby might be fishing. Don't assume that everyone at the track is there by choice. The hot dog vender gets paid to be there as well, but they aren't seeing much racing selling the dogs.

Now.. .as I said, the drivers and cars are the show and I agree that to an extent they shouldn't be paying to put on the show. But I would like to know your bright line on who on the back side shouldn't be paying?

Should my driver walk in free because he's the show? Should he pay something for his insurance coverage?

Should I as an owner walk in free because without my car, there is no show?

Should my wife walk in free because without her letting me blow this money on race cars there wouldn't be a car?

Should my crew walk in free because they are the ones making sure the car runs to put on the show?

Your answer to all of these might very well be "Yes". And I ask these questions sincerely to flush out your position in more concrete terms. Everyone in the pits can't walk in free or else nobody's going to pay to go to the grandstands. So where does this line on who shouldn't pay to put on the show get drawn?

How much is that same promoter who you claim made $50-75,000 losing on weekly shows? Rain outs etc affect the total for the YEAR. And I was a paramedic and I know of ZERO emt's making $32 an hour, that's high pay for most paramedics, and an announcer getting $150??????...christ the stuff you come up with just because you don't want to pay to play is getting out of control. It's simple, I don't want to pay high green fees s I don't golf, I don't want to pay high movie ticket prices so i don't go, I can't afford a race car so I don't have one BUT if I did then it would be because I wanted one and I understand it's a HOBBY at most levels. Sorry DON but you're not a pro, you race small tracks, in front of small crowds, crowds that probally don't support the costs for YOU to go race.... it's simple, either PAY or don't play

First off, I don't think that most announcers foot their living by announcing except for a few such as Rob Klepper who does a fine job and works full time at his craft but not necessarily at a race track. I would even go so far as to say that many do it as a hobby.

As far as who gets in free, here is my position:

Drivers are the show risking their lives. Free back gate period.

Owners are the show also via their cars that fans like to see. big investment. Free back gate also. What about cars owned by multiple owners? One free pass. Beyond that, it's up to the multiple owners to work out any fees.

All others, pit crew, spectators, etc pay for a pit pass.

Now my $64,000 questions is: What evidence or proof does anyone have that promoters are going to go broke based on free passes for owners and drivers? I haven't seen it, so we really don't know. Some close the track doors, just like a corner business, as the result of just being bad business people.

---------- Post added at 04:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:41 PM ----------

The EMT fee was quoted to me by a promoter in Indiana.

The announcer fee was given on this message board by a well know announcer contributor to these threads.

And Racerdog45, I didn't know you followed my race team around 24/7. Your conclusions are very inaccurate about the crowds and tracks. Again, this thread is not about my race team. Please move on to another thread if you don't want to keep personalities out of this discussion.