Originally Posted by racephoto1 USAC emulating NASCRAP isn't a good idea. Last time they did it almost destroyed their silver crown series. Next thing you know they'll want to lock in the top fifteen in points into the feature. Dang, they already have stinkin' provisionals.

It did. There ain't no almost about it.

But that's a discussion better suited for when the Gold Crowns fail and get shoved down our throats by the usual people who got tricked into buying one fo those things and are now begging for anyone to come bail them out.

[9racing]

[QUOTE=illiNOISE;157008]Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 35. The top one or two drivers have "checked out", and have lapped deep into the field. And very few drivers have pulled off. If you have well over half the remaining field down a lap, why shouldn't they be able to race with each other for position without having to worry about screwing things up on the restart for the leaders?]


why shouldnt they get to race for position with other people a lap down or more???? Well, first off.... If your racing for position and lap or laps down.. then might want to hang it up.. on top of that.. They start where they line up because thats and lastly.. the option with putting them where they were scored.. Have you seen how messed up some of these restarts are.. they would be re aligning the group all night.. All i know is, At the little 500, there are none of these bullsh&t calls.. Best format around hands down.. I mean 9.5 times out of 10 if your running a Usac show.. and your lapped, i guess id pull it in.. No sense in wasting the Equipment on doing so.. They just need to leave this rule alone..

[wtvwrocks]

Originally Posted by illiNOISE Just to play Devil's Advocate for a moment, consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 35. The top one or two drivers have "checked out", and have lapped deep into the field. And very few drivers have pulled off. If you have well over half the remaining field down a lap, why shouldn't they be able to race with each other for position without having to worry about screwing things up on the restart for the leaders? Now, for a regular 20 or 25 lap weekly feature, you should probably go ahead and put the lappers up where they belong. It's usually not going to matter if the lappers get to race for position in those deals, because there will usually only be a couple of them, and they will be towards the tail end of the running order anyway.

Or consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 38 - the leader has had to pass 10-12+ cars to maintain his position. Caution comes out and under new rule those 10-12 cars are moved to rear and suddenly #2 guy does not have to pass all of them like leader did - he gets jump on restart and walks away with a win that under old rule would have been very difficult to achieve and former leader now leaves with 2nd place pay when he very well would have won it. Now if you're talking a $10k to win show that's pretty big chunk of change to lose due to this rule......

Either way it's tough but if I was the leader who worked to pass everyone and now its just being handed over to those behind me I would be pretty upset.....makes a good show for the fans but is it good for the racers....guess just have to wait to see what the actual drivers say about it....I guess if you're #2 guy that walks away with a win you're all for it and if you're #1 that just got dumped then it's a bad deal.....I think that is the hard part to swallow for me....that it could happen in last 5 laps and a lot of work for the #2 guy is suddenly much easier and has a much better shot at the win....although if it were a driver I were rooting for in that # 2 spot then it's all good LOL.

[Charles Nungester]

Originally Posted by wtvwrocks Or consider this scenario: A 40 lap A-main goes without a single caution until lap 38 - the leader has had to pass 10-12+ cars to maintain his position. Caution comes out and under new rule those 10-12 cars are moved to rear and suddenly #2 guy does not have to pass all of them like leader did - he gets jump on restart and walks away with a win that under old rule would have been very difficult to achieve and former leader now leaves with 2nd place pay when he very well would have won it. Now if you're talking a $10k to win show that's pretty big chunk of change to lose due to this rule...... Either way it's tough but if I was the leader who worked to pass everyone and now its just being handed over to those behind me I would be pretty upset.....makes a good show for the fans but is it good for the racers....guess just have to wait to see what the actual drivers say about it....I guess if you're #2 guy that walks away with a win you're all for it and if you're #1 that just got dumped then it's a bad deal.....I think that is the hard part to swallow for me....that it could happen in last 5 laps and a lot of work for the #2 guy is suddenly much easier and has a much better shot at the win....although if it were a driver I were rooting for in that # 2 spot then it's all good LOL.

You'd be upset too if you were 2/3rds of a lap ahead of second and there were no lappers between you. Yellows eliminate a ton of fairness. As far as a fan, I like to see racing. Its your job to stay up front

[Seadog]

Just a couple of thoughts on subject this from an ignorant old fan's perspective. Fans get no respect around here.

I see this rule as trying to draw the casual or new fan into the sport more. To make it easier to understand and more exciting for them. Bring somebody that has never been to a race before and then try to explain that under caution the first car in line is in first place, the second car is second, the third car is 11th, the fourth car is 12th, the fifth car is third - you get the idea. Could be confusing to anybody that is not a seasoned race fan. And especially with out a score board. Hell, before one way radios, there were some confused drivers too.

As a driver the rule could work for you or it could work against you. But if the rule is applied equally to all drivers, then it is the same for all drivers. Some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you.

This way there is no doubt who is battling for the win, and no slugs to get in thier way for the last five laps. And it is only for the last five laps, right? I see it as doing more for the fans. After all it really is about entertaining the fans.

Q: So when they send the lapped cars to the back, are they sending them all the way around the track to catch up and pick up a lap? So does that put them down one less lap then they were before the caution came out or not?

[jdull99]

EXACTLY! - "I see this rule as trying to draw the casual or new fan into the sport more. To make it easier to understand and more exciting for them. Bring somebody that has never been to a race before and then try to explain that under caution the first car in line is in first place, the second car is second, the third car is 11th, the fourth car is 12th, the fifth car is third - you get the idea. Could be confusing to anybody that is not a seasoned race fan. And especially with out a score board. Hell, before one way radios, there were some confused drivers too...This way there is no doubt who is battling for the win, and no slugs to get in thier way for the last five laps. And it is only for the last five laps, right? I see it as doing more for the fans. After all it really is about entertaining the fans."

[Tim Clauson]

I wonder how many lappers will be "sacrificial lambs" during the last 5 laps of the race to not only create a caution but also get rid of the lapped cars, kind of killing two birds with one stone with a little use of the bumper.

I think one of the frustrations with lapped cars in the past was the "perceived" randomness of lapped cars being placed between the leaders on one caution and then the next caution they were not. In most if not all cases the perception was that "USAC" controlled that but in reality the drivers policed themselves for the most part..

I am up in the air on this one as I have always been of the opinion that if I as the leader have to work my tail off to lap a car so should the rest of the field. I understand what they are trying to do with this rule but I fear having every race come down to a 5 or less lap shootout when the drivers figure out that the use of their bumper on a lapped car will cause the same result of a NASCAR debris caution ... Might be great for the fans but may get awfully expensive for the owners ...

for what its worth ....

Tim Clauson

[Go Fast]

Damion had lapped up to about 8th on Wednesday. Fortunately for him the caution came out at lap 24 of 30 so the lappers stayed in place. If I was 8th and lapped I wouldn't pull in cause there is a difference in pay from 8th to 9th or 10th. If I was 15th or so, then I would pull in cause the money is the same and why wear out the car/tires/motor or take a chance on getting caught up in something.

Here is another thought... a team car to the second place car is at least a lap down. If he stops on the track after 5 to go now his teammate is on the leaders tail for the restart. Fortunately we don't have many two car teams this year where this strategy could be played.

Guess we will see what happens as the year progresses.

[quicktime3]

Outside of the Chili Bowl, how many guys have the balls and ability to spin someone out without ending up in it, also?

And honestly, how is a guy going to know the lap count and/or where they are positioned? Why do guys running second now not take out a lapped car in the final laps when they can see the leader in front of them?

I have seen many lapped cars police themselves, but I have also seen some guys not use their brain and end up completely changing a race. I just saw Travis Berryhill completely change the finish of a preliminary feature at the Chili Bowl by not heeding the directions of a car behind him, and parking himself right in the way of everyone. I think that one ended with Levi Jones taking him out after the checkered. I think Coleman Gulick was that lapped car a year before.

I think it will rarely be an issue, and will even out in the long run for the guys who run up front, so I like the rule...

[captrat]

I won't address the rule as many logical points on both sides. In addressing the underlying issue of making non-wing racing (specifically USAC) more fan friendly while at the same time carving out an even bigger niche to set it apart from others; I would submit the following. Remove the extra sheet metal which has shown up in recent years, i.e. cockpit enclosures, and fill-in on cages. Take a look at old Dick Wallen video of Terre Haute with cars exiting turn 4; Opperman, Pancho, etc. sawing away on the wheel. Plenty of great stills by others showing the same. It is time to reintroduce the human factor back into the fans perception particularly since racing of our type is often driven by identifying with personalities as opposed to brands.