[chrismattlin]

Originally Posted by Tumey's 55 I once asked a driver who gets in a sprint and SC at Eldora if he would have a midget ride for the 4 Crown. He paused and looked at me and said “I am not sure I want to get in a midget at Eldora”. He could have a ride if he wanted, I am fairly confident of that, so perhaps there is truth in the safety factor.

Very much so.
Let's look to Rico Abreu for an example: I'm pretty confident that his nasty accident in the midget portion of the 4 Crown put an end to his outdoor midget racing exploits, by choice. (And possibly his maniacal prowess behind the wheel of a winged sprint car. )

[chrismattlin]

Originally Posted by Ray3 One thing about USAC and POWRI that is troubling is that they basically share the same teams back and forth. Whichever group is running that night that's where the teams go. We need growth in Midget racing not this shuffling of the same teams back and forth. If you want to grow Midget racing it needs to be done outside of USAC & POWRI. You need local organizations run in regional areas with rules that cut the costs for the guy that works 40 hours a week. There is a reason USAC only brought 18 of their regular cars to Angell Park and on the same night Badger had 35.

That's kinda like saying that NASCAR needs local tracks to start running Cup cars as a class to bolster the national series, IMO. But NASCAR doesn't need that to happen; they have a beautiful feeder of myriad late model stock car tracks from sea to shining sea. The USAC National Midget Series has that too, but obviously, not to the extent of pavement late models. Badger Midgets are one of them. Even way up in the northwest nook of the continental United States at Skagit Speedway you can find a "feeder" midget class.

USAC Midgets is to midgets as IndyCar is to American formula racing- the comparisons are many. They are both the top series of their niche, while both see support from various underling series' of lesser equipment, lesser financial commitment, and lesser talent. In neither of these two top dog series' can you run the exact same equipment you ran in a lesser series. And both of these top American open-wheeled series feature roughly the same types of car counts, averaged out in a long-ish view, while both have premiere events where car counts soar (It's crazy the lure that IMS has on open-wheel people, isn't it? BC39/Indy 500).

[Pitdad]

Originally Posted by chrismattlin USAC Midgets is to midgets as IndyCar is to American formula racing- the comparisons are many. .

Your comparison made me think even further about the similarities and I thought about USAC National Midgets and POWRi National Midgets compared to CART formula racing and INDYCAR/IRL formula racing. The obvious difference here was that CART and IRL didn't play nice together with regard to scheduling or rules. You couldn't race your formula car in both series, but you can run your "National" midget in USAC and POWRi.

I really hadn't looked at this prior to this thread, but Mr. Ray is right, several of the teams are running both series, and because USAC and POWRi are helping each other out with the scheduling, those teams are competitive in points in both. A quick study of the schedules reveals that of the 40 or so races each has on their respective schedules, only 6 overlap. That's pretty amazing! When I first looked at the Eldora field, I really expected the quick and easy answer to be "well, POWRi scheduled against the 4-Crown, so they siphoned off car count", but that wasn't the case at all.

So maybe that's a lesson that motorsports has learned. Play nice together. Share similar rules where you can be competitive in both series without having to run a complete second car/team. And then, maybe both sanctions can benefit from each other instead of beating each other up. AND, if teams want to run an aggressive schedule, they can run both series and be competitive for season points.

[Jonr]

Originally Posted by Pitdad ......I really hadn't looked at this prior to this thread, but Mr. Ray is right, several of the teams are running both series, and because USAC and POWRi are helping each other out with the scheduling, those teams are competitive in points in both. A quick study of the schedules reveals that of the 40 or so races each has on their respective schedules, only 6 overlap. That's pretty amazing! When I first looked at the Eldora field, I really expected the quick and easy answer to be "well, POWRi scheduled against the 4-Crown, so they siphoned off car count", but that wasn't the case at all. So maybe that's a lesson that motorsports has learned. Play nice together. Share similar rules where you can be competitive in both series without having to run a complete second car/team. And then, maybe both sanctions can benefit from each other instead of beating each other up. AND, if teams want to run an aggressive schedule, they can run both series and be competitive for season points.

We will agree to disagree on this one. POWRi and USAC are still battling with each other. The fact that there were only 6 conflicts was more due to dumb luck than them working together. In the years past, it has been worst. The race at Angell Park that Ray mentioned with the 18 USAC cars was one of the conflicts with POWRI racing at Lake of the Ozarks.

Also, in the last two years, Sweet Springs tried to run a co-sanctioned event but the POWRi and USAC rules are not exactly the same and a work around was not reached. They ultimately dropped the POWRi sanction.

Finally, as long as POWRi and USAC continue with their current car counts, I do not want to see them change their rules. There is nothing wrong with the national series to have different rules than a regional series. There is nothing wrong with the national series being the cream of the crop. Not everyone can run a World of Outlaw sprint car. Not everyone can run a national midget.

[The Old Coyote]

[QUOTE=Jonr;544958]
"....POWRi and USAC rules are not exactly the same...."

Just as a fan and out of curiosity, what are the diffenences?

[opnwhlmnd]

[quote=The Old Coyote;544959]

Originally Posted by Jonr "....POWRi and USAC rules are not exactly the same...." Just as a fan and out of curiosity, what are the diffenences?

Main difference is USAC has a rev limiter rule based on the engine you are running and POWRi does not.

[opnwhlmnd]

Originally Posted by chrismattlin Very much so. Let's look to Rico Abreu for an example: I'm pretty confident that his nasty accident in the midget portion of the 4 Crown put an end to his outdoor midget racing exploits, by choice. (And possibly his maniacal prowess behind the wheel of a winged sprint car. )

Let's take Rico for example. He drove a KKM midget both nights this year during the WoO Ironman 55 at I-55 Speedway in Pevely, MO during the first week of August 2021. Saw it with my own eyes. He just won the All-Star portion of four crown on Saturday night so can still wheel a sprint car fairly well.

[Ray3]

[quote=The Old Coyote;544959]

Originally Posted by Jonr "....POWRi and USAC rules are not exactly the same...." Just as a fan and out of curiosity, what are the diffenences?

The only difference that matters is USAC at 1035lbs with driver and POWRI at 1050lbs with driver.

However, POWRI also allows certain engines to run a lot more cubic inches (Gaerte block engines at 177CID, Mopar block engines at 171CID and Fontana engines at 179CID) but very few if any people have taken advantage of it. I don't quite understand how they think the block is the only thing that matters. All someone has to do is redesign a new Mopar head and run at the 171CID and you have some upset SR-11 and Toyota owners. However, POWRI never checks an engine anyway so I don't know why they even make cubic inch engine rules.

Just a note here, the Mopar block, unlike the Gaerte, has a short deck height allowing it to run a short stroke big bore combo. The varying bore and stroke combos, ever changing cubic inches, canted valve heads, etc etc have been an issue for Midget racers for years. It ultimately allows for obsoleting engines. By comparison WoO Sprint Cars dictate your bore, stroke, rod length, and head design. The World of Outlaws are actually far more restrictive than USAC Midgets and yet run for a heck of a lot more money. Oh and a USAC Toyota Midget engine costs just as much or more than a WoO Sprint Car engine and you only get 4 cylinders instead of 8!

The new Badger engine rules take care of most of these issues. We don't dictate engine design but ultimately everyone defaults to a DOHC engine due to the advantage of the four valve heads. We dictate it must be an OEM engine (head, block and crank) which limits the bore and stroke to a specific range (due to the tight bore spacing of OEM engines and the fact you must run an OEM crank). Our cubic inch limit is the same for all engines which eliminates engine manufacturers constantly begging for more cubes to keep up with the latest engines to come out. The end result has been engines for 50-70% less than the purpose built engines and a car count of 35 without any support from any other series and lap times virtually the same.

[Ray3]

[quote=opnwhlmnd;544962]

Originally Posted by The Old Coyote Main difference is USAC has a rev limiter rule based on the engine you are running and POWRi does not.

POWRI shows a rev limit in their rule book. 8700 for pushrod engines and then various for other designs.

[chrismattlin]

Originally Posted by opnwhlmnd He drove a KKM midget both nights this year during the WoO Ironman 55 at I-55 Speedway in Pevely, MO during the first week of August 2021. Saw it with my own eyes..

That's news to me. Thanks.